LC on Rape and Self Defense
ETA: Conversation seems to be going nowhere, with people repeating the same points, desperately trying to get the last word, or just insulting people they disagree with. I don’t see much in the way of productive comments/discussion at this point, so I’m turning off the comments. There may be a follow-up post if I have time, or there may not. Depends on deadlines…
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So apparently Miss Nevada said something about the importance of awareness and self-defense for women, some people responded with varying degrees of anger on Twitter, and Larry Correia chose to respond with a blog post called “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape.”
I’m not gonna waste a lot of time here, and I’ll preface this by noting that as someone who studies and teaches self-defense, I have nothing against people learning to protect themselves.
- Self-defense isn’t and can’t be the only answer. If it is, we’re basically telling everyone who isn’t physically or emotionally capable of fighting off every attacker, no matter how much power that attacker might have over them, that they’re on their own. Sucks to be them, eh?
- How many self-defense courses teach that you’re vastly more likely to be raped by a friend, acquaintance, or loved one? How many courses actually prepare you to use the kind of force you need to use against someone you like or love?
- To LC’s claim that rape culture is a myth and we’re just dealing with individual, isolated criminals, and that all of those studies have been debunked (in which he omitted any links or citations to the alleged debunking … strange, considering how grumpy he is about people supposedly “ignoring reality”):
- A study of 1800+ college men found that roughly 1 in 20 admitted to attempting or committing sexual assault. There are 138 million men in the U.S. Assuming 76% of them are 18 0r older (college age), then statistically, it’s good to know that “only” about 5+ million of them have attempted or committed sexual assault, eh? (Not counting those who begin raping in high school or earlier…)
- Or you could look at this 2007 study that found 1 in 20 college women were raped in a single year. Now extrapolate that to four years in college.
- Oh look, another study about men admitting rape, but this time it’s 1 in 16 men.
- Here’s a National Institute of Justice study that found roughly 1 in 5 women experienced rape or attempted rape at least once in their life.
- There’s a lot more actual research and data out there, but you get the idea.
- Finally, on the “naive idiocy” of teaching men not to rape, I’m gonna just quote from an old blog post:
- If only we had information showing that education can be effective in reducing sexual assault and rape-enabling behaviors/attitudes, not to mention research on how debunking rape myths can increase bystander intervention, or that “Men who consume alcohol two or more times a week and who have peer support for behaving in an emotionally violent manner toward women and for being physically and sexually violent toward women are 10 times more likely to commit sexual aggression toward women.”
Correia is right that there are a lot of different kinds of predators out there. When it comes to sexual assault, the majority of them are men, and they’re far more likely to be someone the victim knows. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, yet for as long as I’ve been working with rape survivors and speaking out about rape, there have been countless people insisting that the Only True Solution is to turn all women into gun-toting ninjas.
I don’t understand the fear some people — again, this seems to be primarily men — have when it comes to looking at other solutions. Instead of reading the research, they just proclaim that education will never work, because reasons. They ignore the pervasiveness of rape myths, the myriad approaches to things like bystander intervention, the utterly broken way our legal system treats rape, and all of the other factors that contribute to the prevalence of rape in our society.
There’s nothing new in LC’s rant. It’s the same attitude we’ve seen for ages, an attitude that conveniently puts the burden on victims to end rape, oversimplifies the problem, and allows the rest of us to look away and pretend there isn’t a real or widespread problem here, despite countless studies showing otherwise.
Some of you are aware of the current conversation in SF/F fandom about several Big Names who sexually assaulted hundreds of children, and how fandom stood by and let it happen, despite there being multiple eyewitnesses to these assaults. Call me a naive idiot, but I wonder how many children would have escaped those assaults if others in fandom had intervened or reported them or enforced any kind of consequences, anything to teach the perpetrators that this kind of behavior was unacceptable.
I wonder how many victims we’re continuing to turn our back on today because we assume there’s no point in doing anything to intervene.
B Ribbles
June 18, 2014 @ 8:52 am
Most of the discussion from authors I see about these “Big Names” is just that, a vague reference without actually using their names. I don’t understand why that is. We have no problem calling out other authors for lesser crimes, but we can’t use Marion Zimmer Bradley’s name?
Kate Lowell
June 18, 2014 @ 8:55 am
The people who say that education doesn’t/can’t work are completely ignoring the example set for us by the people who worked to reduce the incidences of drunk driving. That campaign took twenty years–literally a generation–of high pressure ad campaigns to turn drunk driving from ‘how you got home on Friday night’ to ‘Yo, dude, give me your keys. You’re wasted.’
These people insist that if the problem isn’t wiped out within a year or two of a ‘Don’t Rape’ campaign, then obviously education is something that doesn’t work. These assertions completely ignore the need for repeated social impetus to change a behaviour which gives the perpetrator immediate gratification in a very visceral manner. How often do you need to suffer the negative effect of having people no longer want to socialize with you–often well removed in time from the inciting incident–before the immediate gratification of “I want, I take” becomes less gratifying? How often do you need to receive positive reinforcement to develop a habit? How often do you need negative reinforcement to get rid of one?
Think of those numbers. (And I know I’m preaching to the choir here. This is a bit of a red button for me, with a thirteen year old daughter in the house.)
Mr. Correia’s assertions are bad pseudo-science, of the same kind that teaches people there should be an immediate cure available for all illnesses, so they don’t have to change their lifestyle or do anything that might be uncomfortable or inconvenient. It’s laziness, pure and simple.
On a side note: A decade ago, the local anti-drunk driving groups backed off on their drunk driving campaigns, to put more emphasis on drugs. What happened? We are now seeing a surge in deaths and injuries from drunk drivers. It took a while for the effect to trickle down, but it’s become obvious around here that you can’t let it slide, even when it seems to no longer be a problem. New campaigns have begun, but we’ve probably got a few more years of people being killed or seriously injured before we catch up again.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 8:58 am
Most of the conversations I’ve seen have named both Bradley and Breen. I left it deliberately vague here because I’m still catching up on that conversation, and I didn’t want this post to derail into a discussion of MZB.
B Ribbles
June 18, 2014 @ 9:02 am
Well I haven’t seen these conversations that name them, but I’ve seen an awful lot of vague references. I understand your reasoning but to be honest from my perspective it seems like there’s been some hand wringing on the part of many authors. I won’t comment further on this topic and let it go back to the topic at hand.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 9:08 am
I haven’t seen as much of the vagueness, but I’m also still catching up on everything after being away from the internet for two weeks. I do know there are some folks who are invested in trying to protect Bradley’s name and reputation.
There’s a good link roundup at http://radishreviews.com/2014/06/16/silence-is-complicity/ that both names Bradley and links to some of the other folks doing so.
B Ribbles
June 18, 2014 @ 9:10 am
Thanks for your replies.
Ken Marable
June 18, 2014 @ 10:11 am
That’s a great comparison to drunk driving. I wasn’t aware of the numbers, but checking it out real quick drunk driving fatality rate since 1991 has been cut in half, and if you go further back and looks at the numbers since MADD was founded (with some quick math to adjust for population), it has been cut down by 64% since 1982. Wow, honestly, I had no idea it was working that well. (Still long ways to go, but that is a dramatic change.)
Maybe the anti-rape education should work to largely model that as well. I think part of the effectiveness of the anti-drunk driving education is stuff like “give me your keys” and the like. It didn’t just say “this is a problem” it clearly and repeatedly modeled the behavior of HOW to intervene. Which also shows shy rape culture is such a problem. Imagine how effective MADD and other groups would have been if every day in movies, TV shows, magazine ads, billboards, over and over we were inundated with images of cool people drinking and driving without consequence. Add in news reports about how a teen drunk driver hit some people and how tragic it is since the driver had such a promising future. Or how if you are hit by a drunk driver you are questioned with:
“What were you driving?”
“Why didn’t you get out of their way?”
“Did you want to be hit by a drunk driver so that you could sue? Or was it just enjoy the privilege that comes with being hit by a drunk driver?”
“He seems like such a nice person when he’s not drunk, are you sure that you didn’t hit him?”
“Don’t you know it’s not safe to drive at night when the bars are closing? Why would you be that irresponsible?”
bluestgirl
June 18, 2014 @ 10:16 am
Agreed on all points.
Also, I remember when I was watching news reports about Steubenville (I’m probably misspelling but I really don’t want to google it) there were news outlets that were saying things like, “this action, which according to Ohio law is considered a sexual assault,” which implies that they assume that a significant portion of their audience DOESN’T KNOW THAT. Because no one says, “according to Ohio law, taking property that doesn’t belong to you is theft.”
EDUCATION. WE NEED IT.
jim braiden
June 18, 2014 @ 11:45 am
◦A study of 1800+ college men found that roughly 1 in 20 admitted to attempting or committing sexual assault. There are 138 million men in the U.S. Statistically, it’s good to know that “only” about 7 million of them have attempted or committed sexual assault, eh.
I think you should check your maths, Mr Hines- hint: college men.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 12:00 pm
Hines, I honestly don’t know exactly what to say to your yellow journalism. At NO POINT does Larry say that we shouldn’t teach men and young boys not to rape. AT NO POINT.
What he does do is point out the mindblowingly stupidity of some that say “Oh, how can she say that. She puts it on the victim. How about we teach men not to rape.” We do. I was told by my father as a child that do do something that horrible, I’d be on my own and he would turn me in himself.
But, some men LIKE and ENJOY the feeling of power that they get by RAPE. The get their sick and twisted jollie off it. So, what should the woman do at that point. “Oh please Mr. Badman, don’t rape me, let me call someone to come and get me away from here instead.” Great, guess what, she just played into his power fantasy, most likely encouraging him more.
“Most rapes occur by men they know personally.” And….? What, they shouldn’t know how to defend themselves anyway? NO means NO, but when it’s ignored, I sincerely hope whoever the woman is she attempts to drive her foot into his crotch so hard his testicles explode out of his eye sockets.
Why do you hate little girls and women, Mr. Hines? I mean, you are basically advocating that women have no defense against someone attempting to rape them, relying on the good graces of men to keep them safe. That is actually misogony. You are telling women that they cannot have control, not to use their brains to get out of dangerous situations, not to stand up for themselves, to rely on men. That is the EXACT OPPOSITE of feminism according to my feminist wife. Feminismn is supposed to be about taking control of YOUR life, not leaving your fate in the hands of others you HOPE will do right by you.
So, you say you teach self defense courses. Do you teach a 110 lb woman that she has the physcial ability to beat up a man weighing 250lbs, is in good shape, and is hyped up at the idea of raping her? Or do you teach her a) be aware of her surroundings, b) be aware that she will be facing someone more than likely stronger than her and capable of overpowering her, c) that she will need to use her mind and body to defend herself, or d) hope that Sir Gallahad will come along and saver her from the bad guy.
Teaching self defense is NOT victim blaming. It is simply not. IT IS, however, GOOD SENSE. Good sense says society teaches our children right and wrong. Practical reality says that we can teach all day long, every day, and there is still going to be a percentage of people that will, for whatever reason, do what they want to, even if it flouts law and teaching.
So, why do you dislike women so much? If I had a daughter, I’d want her to know that not all men are a rape waiting to happen, but that there are people out there, men and women, that will or would, given the chance. I’d teach her to be aware of her situtation, and I’d teach her to do her utmost to mark, cut, damage, shoot, kill, maim or destroy anyone that attempted to rape her. I’d want elbows, car keys, knives, guns…whatever she needed to be at her call, not just a vague and nebulous hope that she will be saved by someone else coming along to save her.
Honestly, being a victim seems more important to this “rape culture” attitude you have than not being one.
cthulhu363
June 18, 2014 @ 12:01 pm
Funny how you didn’t bother to link to any quotes by Larry Correia. You’d rather build some straw men and argue against those. Good job.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:01 pm
Good catch. Yeah, we can probably assume the average one-year-old boy hasn’t tried to commit rape. Thanks – I’ve updated the maths.
Trencherman
June 18, 2014 @ 12:05 pm
Wow, kind of shocked to hear about this – I’ve discovered Larry Correia’s books in the past year and thought they were pretty good!
I found the article “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape” on Correia’s website – but I don’t see a lot the ideas you are attributing to him in that article. Is there another one you are talking about?
I keep reading about these awful things he says, but can’t find actual links or quotes. I go to his website, and he seems like he’s very Conservative, but never find anything really damning about the guy. Is his site just really sanitized? I’d definitely like to see a real rundown of all this stuff before I pickup anymore of his books, so links would be great.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:06 pm
“At NO POINT does Larry say that we shouldn’t teach men and young boys not to rape. AT NO POINT.”
Well, you could start by reading the actual title of Larry’s blog post…
Given the amount of misunderstanding, bile, and ignorance in your comment, please consider this your warning that further such crap will likely be eaten by goblins.
jim braiden
June 18, 2014 @ 12:13 pm
A study of 1800+ college men found that roughly 1 in 20 admitted to attempting or committing sexual assault. There are 138 million men in the U.S. Assuming 76% of them are 18 0r older (college age), then statistically, it’s good to know that “only” about 5+ million of them have attempted or committed sexual assault, eh.
Sorry but that is still very dodgy statistics.
It does not say college age- it says college men.
Does that mean men who are attending college or men who have attended college?- in either case it cannot mean all men of college age- around 35% of American men are college educated so that even is we take it that “college men” refers to them your figure is out by about 65%.
If it refers to men in college then the figure drops even further.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 12:14 pm
Interesting: You’ve made numerous claims about what Mr. Correia said…. but haven’t linked to where he said them. I suspect that’s because he didn’t say anything you claim.
Chesterton
June 18, 2014 @ 12:14 pm
You’ll never find it. Most of Larry’s critics are so desperate to attack him that they have no compunctions about making things up, or–God forbid–linking to what he actually said.
Feel free to buy Correia’s books. Despite their best efforts to make things up and paint him as the next Hitler, he’s a nice guy and common sensical. Very pro-woman, which as a woman, I appreciate a lot.
RIchard Hailey
June 18, 2014 @ 12:14 pm
I’m just curious if you actually read the post, because the first two thirds are all about the backlash faced by Nia Sanchez for suggesting that self defense is a good way to protect yourself from rape, a position you say you are good with.
What’s wrong with teaching women to be confident and capable? Why the backlash?
Obviously, a beauty pageant soundbite isn’t large enough to give a full treatment to the issue of rape, and clearly, Sanchez, who has spent a considerable amount of time honing her own self defense skills, is going to lead with the portion of the answer most relevant to her experience. The problem Correia is responding to is the assault Sanchez took in social media for ‘victim blaming.’
As for his supposed ‘fear’ of looking at other solutions, let’s look at a short quote:
“One bit of obfuscation that the Perpetually Outraged Everybody’s A Victim crowd likes to engage in is lumping all sexual assaulters into one bucket, even though it is a complicated subject with several different types of offenders. So if you say that concealed carry, pepper spray, or martial arts is helpful against one type, they’ll respond by saying “but that does nothing against rape within marriage or date rape, and so does nothing at all!” That’s really either profoundly stupid or disingenuous. That’s like saying I’ve got fire extinguishers in my house, but because fire extinguishers are useless for combatting thousand acre wild fires, I should throw them all away, and if I don’t then I’m pro-arson.”
In other words, Correia is saying that self defense is one tool in an arsenal against rape, not the only tool, and his argument is against those who try and diminish the importance of that tool.
Folks, there’s no argument here. Why try to pretend there is?
Incidentally, the $200 million elephant in the room regarding child rape is not some decades ago incidents with Marion Zimmer Bradley and Chip Delaney, but the current issues surrounding Bryan Singer. Once again, science fiction fandom faces a clear choice. Will they continue to enable predators, or will they stand against them? Are we going to ‘teach’ Bryan Singer the error of his ways?
Because if not, regardless of excuse or reason, the only other option is to teach his potential victims how to defend themselves.
That’s what Correia is talking about.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 12:15 pm
Mr. Hines, citations, please.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:16 pm
And I see that LC has once again sent his Facebook minions over to show me the error of my ways.
I’m working on short story revisions, so won’t be responding to every individual complaint about how LC talking about the “naive idiocy of teaching men not to rape” doesn’t REALLY mean he’s against teaching men not to rape, or the fascinating conclusion that my post must mean I secretly HATE ALL THE WOMENS!!!
But I will warn that general dickishness will get comments deleted, because I don’t have time for that crap.
Jayle Enn
June 18, 2014 @ 12:17 pm
Claiming that rape is something that can always be defended against physically, and almost always comes from an unknown attacker, grants an illusion of safety: as long as you stay within the firelight, and have a club to hand, you can defend yourself against the beasts in the night. It’s very straightforward, and like many straightforward claims relating to humans, it breaks down rather quickly.
I think the aversion to discussing rape has the same root that discussing spousal abuse or even sex education often suffers from: serious discussion of sex and relationships in our culture makes people uncomfortable, and we’d rather just ignore it and carry on as we were before.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:18 pm
Yes. It’s called extrapolating from the data. Unless you’re arguing that men who don’t go to college don’t commit rape?
Also, I guess it’s a good thing we have multiple studies backing up those findings, eh?
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:20 pm
“Despite their best efforts to make things up and paint him as the next Hitler…”
And we have a winner for the Godwin Straw Man Award! Please collect your trophy and certificate.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 12:23 pm
Please articulate your beliefs on my “misunderstanding, bile and ignorance”. I very much look forward to your response.
Danielle Church
June 18, 2014 @ 12:26 pm
I just want to respond to your point #2 — at least one self-defense course teaches that, and teaches it well, and I highly doubt that it’s the only one. From the IMPACT Self Defense website, http://www.impactselfdefense.org/, which lists chapters across the US and a couple internationally:
“IMPACT recognizes that the majority of sexual assaults and other violations are committed by people close to us. IMPACT teaches effective strategies for addressing situations in which the person not respecting our boundaries is a dating partner, family member, or other familiar person.”
I’ve taken that course and I can’t recommend it highly enough, especially since it does give you a great many non-violent strategies to assert your own boundaries at the same time as it teaches you to back them up physically if it comes to that point.
The point I’m really trying to make here, though, is that rape culture is a two-pronged attack. The most obvious is that our society teaches men that it’s all right and normalized to commit emotional, physical, and sexual assault on women. The other, though, is that it teaches women to be passive, not “make waves”, and let people walk over their boundaries in hopes that the aggressors will just go away. In short, our society conditions women to be vulnerable to the exact attacks that it conditions men to commit. It’s okay and even necessary to use diverse tactics to fight rape culture. Saying that the moral onus is on rapists is true but incomplete because it, ironically, strips survivors and likely victims of agency by saying there’s nothing that they can do, and that strengthens the second prong of rape culture. We should be promoting self-defense and empowerment classes like IMPACT that seek to reverse that conditioning at the very same time that we promote education for men, because otherwise we’re leaving the job half-done.
Chesterton
June 18, 2014 @ 12:26 pm
That’s not his argument.
His argument is that some men will rape whatever they are taught: for these men, women should be equipped and taught to defend themselves.
Desert Rat
June 18, 2014 @ 12:26 pm
I promise you, the fact that you will delete anything you disagree with surprises no one.
William Taylor
June 18, 2014 @ 12:26 pm
Education is not the answer to everything. While I most certainly agree that it should be taught it is only one part of a whole puzzle that needs to be solved.
Is rape wrong? Absolutely, there is absolutely no occasion anywhere in the history of the world where it can be justified but this hasn’t stopped it. People know right from wrong this also hasn’t stopped it.
So why is it so hard to fathom that just because you teach it doesn’t means they will learn it. You can’t shame criminals, they have no shame. Make no mistake anyone who rapes is a criminal I don’t care if they are your friend, cousin or relatives. So education that the idea wrong is great, keep it up but for those that simply won’t learn the lesson need to be given another deterrent like a gun in their face.
Both sides of this debate need to calm the hell down and realize both sides are right. Education is necessary as well as nedit to know how to defend yourself should your attacker be a slow learner.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:28 pm
Just as the fact that you can’t understand the difference between deleting dickish comments and deleting all disagreement surprises no one.
Tom Monaghan
June 18, 2014 @ 12:28 pm
Drunk driving fatalities decrease. Seat belt use. 1983 14% 2011 84% Also Air Bags have became mandatory September 1, 1998, and as time goes by fewer and fewer cars on the roads don’t have them. Plus would you believe that there has been a downward trend in American Driving http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/jhorner/will_2013_continue_the_trend_o.html
Pete
June 18, 2014 @ 12:32 pm
Jim – just came across the blog (yes – linked from Correia’s site). I am confused about your comments about general dickishness. It may be me, but I don’t see evidence that commenters are being PWL’s (i.e. “Penii With Legs”). Rather, it appears they’re commenting forcefully – maybe somewhat more than is typical for your audience, but robust debate is always good. As a college professor, I often see people who face stiff opposition trying to minimize their opponents rather than respond to the arguments. It’s a nice rhetorical tactic, but unfortunately, it cuts down on debate, which hurts everyone. The best antidote for bad speech is not shutting it down, but responding with good speech that addresses the bad speech substantively.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:34 pm
Pete – You might have noticed that I haven’t actually deleted any of those comments.
However, I do moderate comments that cross that line for me, and thought it only fair to let folks know. I’ve got a longer post talking about comment moderation here.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 12:36 pm
Jayle, Larry never, NEVER said that. NO one did. Whether it be a husband, boyfriend, lover, classmate, other girl that got hands with you when drunk, no matter who, a woman should be able to defend herself. Reliance on “Teach men not to rape” guarantees that a woman won’t have the tools to defend herself. How is that feminist? it’s not, and that’s not me saying that, it’s my feminist wife saying it.
Brad
June 18, 2014 @ 12:37 pm
This is precisely what caused the idiotic reaction to Ms Nevada’s comments. Somehow, those wackjobs saw someone advocating a method to help reduce rapes and they read it as “Self defense is the only method, all other methods should be shunned!” Neither Ms. Nevada nor Larry Correia advocated self defense as the ONLY solution. On the contrary, it was the “How about we teach men not to rape instead?” that are advocating the One-Size-Fits-All solution (Note the word “instead”). Mr. Hines, I appreciate where you’re coming from, but I think you should consider the entire situation. Larry Correia’s blog post was clearly targeted at the “teach men not to rape INSTEAD” type of comments. I know that Larry has at least one daughter. He WANTS boys and young men to be taught boundaries. The problem is that virtually every male in the US already knows rape is wrong. Suggesting that they need to be taught not to rape is as absurd suggesting that they need to be taught not to shoot people in the face so they can steal their watch. When even partially sober, they know rape is wrong. Teaching them not to drink themselves into inhibitionless stupor, however, is a great idea, and I think you’re advocating that. I’m willing to bet Larry agrees. Teaching young WOMEN not to drink themselves into a stupor is also helpful, though some would undoubtedly call that victim-blaming. Those are portions of a solution that will always be incomplete. Self-defense is another portion.
The studies about college rapes are fundamentally flawed precisely because college is the place where it’s considered “part of the experience” to binge drink and attend wild parties, which is the perfect environment for that type of rape to occur. To correlate that out to the rest of society and try to build nationwide statics from that basis is wildly erroneous. That type of partying and binge drinking environment is specifically concentrated in and around colleges. It does still exist prior to and after college, but in much lower proportions.
In summary: Larry never said that education was useless, just that it’s silly to claim that men haven’t been taught that rape is wrong and if they just had that lesson it’d all be wonderful. Self defense is not the total solution, but education sure as heck isn’t either.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 12:40 pm
I don’t think anyone made that claim.
Carry on…..
Pete
June 18, 2014 @ 12:43 pm
I can’t comment on whether or not comments were deleted, since depending on your system, they might disappear all traces. But the comments about proper decorum are a bit strange, because taking you at your word that all comments remain, I haven’t yet seen any evidence of anything even approaching such behavior. A question – do you make this warning for most “outside” groups (and I note you’ve done it twice already), or just for groups that tend to take an opposing view?
Correia’s group is pretty outspoken, but I’ve found them to be extremely bright and substantive. I have a 13 YO daughter, who is just getting into debate, and she’s already picked up on the idea that you should SEEK OUT groups that are sharp and have viewpoints in opposition to your own, as it’s a rare thing to find a group like this that likes to “play”. I ran a pretty successful blog for years (almost a thousand subscribers), and the best threads were those where people disagreed intensely over long periods.
Majestic_Moose
June 18, 2014 @ 12:47 pm
yes because drunk driving and rape have so much else in common. And how much of the so called effectiveness of the campaign was public awareness how much increasing fines, jail time, etc?
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 12:48 pm
I would love to see us start taking those steps in cases of rape as well.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 12:52 pm
“Why do you hate little girls and women, Mr. Hines?”
I’m willing to acknowledge that people can have different opinions on different issues, but this is the point at which it became impossible to take you seriously.
Tom Monaghan
June 18, 2014 @ 12:57 pm
So Jim are you suggesting male chastity belts?
Eric J Ehlers
June 18, 2014 @ 12:58 pm
lol @ Larry is not saying these things.
Larry IS saying these things.
The title says “education is pointless.”
As does this quote: “rapists don’t give a shit about your tender feelings. The only moral calculation they are making is can I take what I want without getting caught or hurt?”
No where does he address women who don’t have the physical or emotional capability to fight off even with training.
Nevermind the fact that the entire tone of Larry’s post PLUS the tone of all his supporters coming here indicate a deep misunderstanding of how most rapes occur.
Rick Bennet doesn’t see the relevance of most rape being from known persons. That’s important because the context is not a random, aggressive person. These rapes are not a violent approach. This means you’re asking the potential victim to initiate violence. At a time when she’s already being emotionally challenged. Is that insurmountable? no, but it means that a primarily self defense approach is even less effective.
so, to sum up, yes, Larry does say education is ineffective. He DOES say rape culture is a myth. He DOES make religion-based discriminatory remarks. He DOES come from his insular western-american nonurban area, male-centered, white background and make grand assumptions about how people in other areas, other backgrounds, and other genders do and should respond. The fact that he turns around and says something else in a single sentence elsewhere does not negate the impact of his overall tone and message.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 1:00 pm
In the years I’ve been following this blog, this is only the second time I can specifically recall seeing Larry Correia’s comments addressed directly. Granted, two events is not necessarily a pattern, but as I recall the last time also brought an onslaught of angry persons accusing Mr. Hines of all manner of chicanery.
I’ve not been to Correia’s blog (and don’t plan to go; nothing against the man personally, but his work just isn’t my style), so I haven’t seen it firsthand, but is there suddenly a glut of Hines fans over there trying to shut down conversation and throwing around ad hominem nonsense like beads at Mardi Gras? Because that would just be embarrassing.
Veronica Schanoes
June 18, 2014 @ 1:02 pm
Let’s also point out how seldom women’s stories of actual rape are believed; how often women, particularly women of color, are jailed for harmless self-defense (Marissa Alexander). You think that’s going to change when women are violently defending themselves against husbands, boyfriends, fathers, more often?
It also presumes that women have infinite time, money, and energy at their disposal with which to learn self-defense. To say nothing of, as you pointed out, physical and emotional ability.
Jeff
June 18, 2014 @ 1:06 pm
After reader your post and Correia’s post. I don’t think you and Correia are that different, but maybe I’ve gotten too lazy to take off my empathy hat before getting on the internet. Both of you feel that rape is bad and agree with self-defense as one tool to combat it.
You feel that education is really important, where as Correia seems to feel that education should be a given and doesn’t need as much of a push. I think this is partly because the need for education on rape culture doesn’t need to be addressed equally on a geographic level. Where Correia lives, there are 2300 people with an average income that that is 150% that of the rest of the state. Correia and his children (as latinos) make up the bulk of the diversity in the town, though there is an Native American in the town as well. There is one registered sex offender and has a crime rate of 0 and has been since the town was founded. There is a 5% divorce rate and it seems like men are taught they will be struck dead if they forget to open the door for a woman and even thinking about looking at a women as a sex object will cause them to be erased from all existence.
That is not what most places in the United States are like.
Sorry, Jim, I don’t know what kind of place you live in. But you can go to http://www.city-data.com and compare if you want.
There are definitely places that have cultures where men are taught they can do whatever they want to women. Those places need education and will need on-going education.
More isolated placed, like where Correia lives, that same education can feel irrelevant and like its nagging. And it can even (though unlikely) have the opposite effect of what it intended by introducing the idea of rape to a community that hasn’t had that idea before.
So in Correia’s defense, it seems reasonable that self-defense is the way to go where he lives, because it doesn’t have a rape culture–or at least not a strong one. There if someone is going to commit a rape, it is probably someone from outside the community coming in. So from his stand-point, the individual needs to take control of the situation to not be a victim because where he lives society has done what it can do–in an isolated, upper middle-class, low population, no crime area.
And there still isn’t an early detection system or a cure for sociopaths, so he is correct in that there will always be rapists. But it seems like you understand that as well, you’re simply acknowledging that some cultural ideas can reduce or increase the number of rapists.
You are correct in that education can help reduce the number of rapes in many areas. I’ve seen and lived in many areas where the ideas of masculinity and femininity are all the wrong ones and that causes a lot of hurt. But I feel that making blanket statements about communities isn’t helpful. Also, I’ve worked in the education field, and it certainly has its limits, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it.
Cecily Kane
June 18, 2014 @ 1:07 pm
LC’s and several commenters’ attitudes are very dangerous, particularly in espousing the idea that firearms protect people from rape.
1) A gun is a tool, not a talisman. Being able to properly use that tool requires ongoing training and practice. This is expensive and time-consuming and not an available avenue for everyone.
2) Most rapes happen in intimate settings and within relatively close quarters, circumstances in which a) one is unlikely to be packin’ and b) the proximity between assailant and victim makes a gun an inefficient and dangerous tool to attempt to use (monumental understatement).
3) Women are far more likely to have their own gun used against them than successfully defend themselves using one.*
4) Women with firearms in the home are significantly more likely to be murdered with a firearm (same source as above).
5) These people are showing their lack of self-education on this issue, for they not only haven’t done the basic research that would show them the above, but seem not to realize that the reason most women don’t fight back while being assaulted is not that they can’t but because it’s more likely to get them battered or killed.
6) Furthermore, part of the lack of education on this issue in general is that most rapists probably do not understand that what they are doing is in fact rape. Lisak’s research on predators seems to support this hypothesis.
7) I would posit that this is likely due to the pervasiveness of the stranger-with-knife-in-bushes cultural script.
8) But we know better. Taken to their logical ends, “rape prevention advice” for women would consist of avoiding all men.
9) Finally, culture can change. Look at smoking.
*http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/having-a-gun-in-the-house-doesnt-make-a-woman-safer/284022/
Brad
June 18, 2014 @ 1:10 pm
Eric – Going to have to call you on a couple of your statements. You imply you read his blog post, but you seem to have missed some things he said.
First, you said “Larry IS saying these things. The title says “education is pointless.”” – In fact, the title DOES NOT say that. The title says “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape.” It is very specifically saying that it’s naive and idiotic to teach RAPISTS not to rape. Never once, in the title or otherwise, does he say anything remotely like “education is pointless.” He says that a specific type of education that some people are advocating, specifically that men in generally need to be taught not to rape and that will solve the problem, is naive and idiotic. If you don’t agree, that’s your business. But THAT is what he said. From my observations, Larry has NO PROBLEM with people disagreeing with him, even loudly and enthusiastically. He does seem to get a bit annoyed when people put words in his mouth, which is precisely what you did.
Second, you state “No where does he address women who don’t have the physical or emotional capability to fight off even with training.” – That’s patently not true. In his post, he specifically said “Now me personally, I’m a fan of guns, because groin kicking and throat punching is hard work, especially when the defender is usually giving up a bunch of weight, muscle mass, and bone density against her assailant.” I don’t know how the last part of that can possibly be interpreted as other than saying the victim may not have “the physical capability to fight off even with training.”
Cecily Kane
June 18, 2014 @ 1:13 pm
Damn. I meant that to be its own comment thread, not a reply.
Peter K
June 18, 2014 @ 1:19 pm
“LC’s and several commenters’ attitudes are very dangerous, particularly in espousing the idea that firearms protect people from rape.”
Cecily Kane’s comment is important.
Don
June 18, 2014 @ 1:20 pm
If you don’t see anyone being jerky then you must have come in after the clown who peppers his disagreement with “why do you hate women?”
That aside, nobody is obligated to provide people a space to treat them poorly. If they wish to engage in “good speech” they have an infinite number of spaces on the internet to do it.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 1:23 pm
Jeff – Based on what I’ve read, I agree that there are some areas of overlap between what Larry and I both believe. But I’m highly skeptical about a town of 2300 being a crime-free, and specifically a rape-free, environment. We know rape is a very underreported crime. Small communities can be even more hostile about such things, especially if they hold to certain “traditional” values like keeping things private and in the family, not wanting to tarnish a good man’s reputation, etc.
I genuinely wish I could believe that small communities like his are free of rape and the attitudes that facilitate it, but in all of my reading and experience and interactions with rape survivors, that hasn’t generally been the case.
And even if it was, he didn’t write a blog post talking about his community. His comments were about rape in general.
Thanks,
Jim
Angua
June 18, 2014 @ 1:24 pm
““Teach men not to rape” guarantees that a woman won’t have the tools to defend herself.”
Whut?
Why do you think that education and self defense are mutually exclusive?
I’m with Jim. Do both.
Brad
June 18, 2014 @ 1:34 pm
There are certainly causes of authorities not believing the victim, but that seems to be a much smaller problem than in the past. It still needs to be corrected, but I don’t think it’s a widespread issue. The opposite can also be a problem. False victims making false claims (ie, the Duke University LaCrosse incident) which has the unfair side effect of causing some people to be more cautious about accepting reports of legitimate assault at face value. These are legitimate problems that we as a society definitely need to work on, but they certainly don’t justify the stance that advocating self defense instruction is somehow victim blaming and utterly unhelpful.
Marissa Alexander is a TERRIBLE example to prove your point. This woman who, by all accounts probably was abused, responded in a completely unjustified way. She LEFT the residence (and with it, any immediate threat to herself), obtained a gun from her car and RETURNED, and fired it ACROSS THE ROOM at her alleged attacker. Even that, I wouldn’t say she was inherently in the wrong. I do believe there are situations in which a chronically-abused person could be justified in pre-emptive and premeditated shooting of their abuser. The problem with Marissa Alexander’s case appears when you add in the small detail of the fact that she was firing in the general direction of not just her past abuser, but also two CHILDREN. Given the actual context of the situation, she was clearly in the wrong (even if the man was also in the wrong). I do think that sentence she received, a result of Florida’s “10-20-Life” law, was clearly out of proportion, but that’s a different discussion. This woman was NOT defending herself from an immediate threat, and put two children in significant danger of serious injury or death.
Mark O
June 18, 2014 @ 1:44 pm
I’d love to know how much experience some of you have working with rapists. Not victims, RAPISTS.
I worked in corrections, specializing in supervision of classed “Predatory Sexual Offenders”.
Rape is a power crime, not a sex crime. Please explain how you wish to tell an offender how they should just stop raping because it isn’t right.
I’ve never met a single inmate who wouldn’t laugh him or herself silly over such a statement.
Steve
June 18, 2014 @ 1:49 pm
Actually LC said this in his blog post:
“Now for the absurd accusations that advocating personal responsibility is blaming the victim. Taking some responsibility and learning to defend yourself isn’t a guarantee of perfect safety, no more than wearing a seatbelt ensures you’ll survive a car accident, but both help your odds.”
jim braiden
June 18, 2014 @ 1:50 pm
Yes it is called extrapolating from data and what you are doing is a text book example of the dangers of doing that
You are taking a small and unrepresentative sample and using it to draw false conclusions about the whole.
Young males in college are in an environment where they are for the first time outside the boundaries and discipline of the home, they have easy access to alcohol and drugs and are in close contract with a large number of young women.
To extrapolate their behaviour and claim it is representative of that of the adult male population is bad statistics, weak logic and petty poor reasoning.
To put it in terms you might understand it is like carrying out a survey at an SF convention and then claiming sixty percent of the population are Star Trek fans.
I think your problem with Mr Correia is that you simply don’t like him and rather like the old lady and sin you don’t care what he says-you’re agin it
Steven Taylor
June 18, 2014 @ 1:51 pm
[Comment fed to goblins for general dickishness and lack of any real content.]
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 1:51 pm
“Please explain how you wish to tell an offender how they should just stop raping because it isn’t right.”
Is that what you hear when people talk about working to educate men about rape? Because if so, that rather belittling assumption is a huge part of the disconnect.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 1:57 pm
Yes, research isn’t perfect. I think we all recognize that, but thank you for proclaiming the obvious. I notice you continue to ignore the fact that we’re not talking about a single isolated study here. I cited two in the blog post, and there are plenty of others out there. That’s part of how research works, you see.
But your comment about these out-of-control young men is rather fascinating. Are you suggesting that men are such uncivilized beasts that the moment you take them out of the home and expose them to women and alcohol, they suddenly transform into rapists? How utterly weird that women don’t magically suffer the same transformation when exposed to alcohol and men.
If that’s the case, as you seem to claim here, it suggests we’re doing a really shitty job of teaching guys how to behave…
James
June 18, 2014 @ 1:58 pm
Oh, and the National institute of Justice compares quite a few studies on defensive gun uses, and shows there are about 320,000 instances every year where people have used a firearm to defend themselves against rape…. I bet that number would be higher if women were ENCOURAGED to carry firearms!!!
But I’m sure you’re right… Guns are too complicated for women to figure out how to use to defend themselves… I mean, most adult people aren’t capable of handling a firearm safely… I mean, its very hard to figure out that bullets come out this end right here, and if you don’t want bullets to come out that end right there, maybe this thing getting pulled has something to do with it? I don’t know… Too complicated….
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f20NDMEddY)
Also, there were estimates that firearms are used in self defense about 1,000,000 times every year… Kleck and Gertz were hired (by the clinton administration) to investigate this claim and proove that it isn’t nearly that high.
In trying to disprove that number, they discovered the number is likely higher, in the 1-2.5 million times every year…
But, no no… They are too hard to use effectively, and only the police are trained well enough to use them…..
http://blog.hsoi.com/2014/06/10/professionals-and-lack-of-training/
James
June 18, 2014 @ 1:59 pm
Forgot the link to the NIJ study…
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
James
June 18, 2014 @ 2:00 pm
dammit. How did I forget my wikipedia link too?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use#Estimates_of_frequency
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 2:08 pm
Thanks for the link, James. Um … did you see where the National Institute of Justice study was calling into question the very numbers you’re citing?
“The NSPOF does not provide much evidence on whether consumers who buy guns for protection against crime get their money’s worth. The NSPOF-based estimate of millions of DGUs each year greatly exaggerates the true number, as do other estimates based on similar surveys.”
“In line with the theory that many DGU reports are exaggerated or falsified, we note that in some of these reports, the respondents’ answers to the followup items are not consistent with respondents’ reported DGUs.”
“It does not make sense, then, that the NSPOF
estimate of the number of rapes in which a woman defended herself with a gun was more than the total number of rapes estimated from NCVS (exhibit 8).” (Emphasis added)
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 2:09 pm
Oh, how very big of you to be willing. I cannot take anyone serious that thinks Self Defense is victim blaming.
Guess
June 18, 2014 @ 2:10 pm
I am really tempted to write some fan fiction about Larry and John at a conference together in Colorado. Someone feeds each of them a ‘happy brownie’ they then lose all inhibition and jump each other. To the point that the fans are going ‘dude get a room’. See if I can get a hugo for best fan writer. I figure the conservatives will vote for me because I am making fun of Jim and the liberals will wuv me for making fun of Larry. The real kicker is who ends up on top. As a good story teller, I’ll keep that to myself and won’t release spoilers.
Now to Jim’s post… your about half write and you are taking what larry said out of context. I basically just have some bullets, so I’ll make a list. I work in IT. Its what I do.
1. Calling Larry’s post a ‘rant’ is just a silly way to belittle it. Its hardly a rant. You can apply terms like that to anything.
2. you both teach self defense. ok check. You have that in common. I get the impression Larry teaches women to shoot attackers and jim teaches them to kick attackers in the nuts. Both can be effective. Gun probably more so. Yeah I know Jim you do more than that. I am summarizing. Similiar to what you did with Larry’s post.
3. Larry didn’t argue to call women ‘gun toting ninjas’. He blogs tend to be long winded. I think thats one of thing that leaves him open for posts like this. The better summary is: Some guys are scumbags. Telling them that rape is wrong won’t work. Guys tend to be bigger than women(note stereotype, but its valid), so in some cases a woman may need to defend herself. Shooting a guy like this is probably a better bet than kicking him in the nuts. Since you may not have the proper angle. He is isn’t going to rape anyone ,so basically, screw these guys.
You two can have a legitimate debate about studies about how frequent rape is. I have seen studies that question the numbers you put up. If your going to do that, you should look at the details of the study, how it was done ,what question was asked (you can skew studies by wording questions differently) and who did it. I don’t trust advocacy groups on either side. I see Jim sited a government study. However, that debate doesn’t need to be a rant.
The last part of your essay(note I am not calling it a rant), talks about some child molesting writers. First off, damn glad I never went to a con… second off that is separate and unrelated from Larry’s argument. Your basically tying Larry’s statement that ‘if a scumbag is on top of a woman, her only way to get the scumbag off is to shoot him’ with ‘some people who you claim are trying to ignore the rape culture and stick their heads in the ground, plus tying in the child molesting SF writers…. Your talking through him and twisting his words.
Another point you make is about guys being afraid to try another way. Uh… I don’t see fear in Jim’s approach. He just doesn’t think yours will work.
my opinion: if Jim is correct and rape is this prevalent, if I had a daughter, I’d send her to larry to learn how to shoot. Then if he didn’t effectively teach her to kick the guy in the nuts (in case she isn’t packing that day), I’d send her to Jim to learn how to kick him in the nuts. That is hardly putting it on the victim to stop it. Its empowering her to protect herself.
Dude your twisting stuff around.
note: not a professional writer and an work. So not alot of time to edit.. so ignore typos and run on sentences. This is not a rant. just poorly written post.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 2:14 pm
I don’t think they are mutually exclusive. The “blaming the victim” crowd was saying that. I think that both are required for a woman to have ALL the tools to defend herself. But saying that having one is good and having the other is blaming the victime is blind, foolish, and stupid. Like nature vs. nurture, anyone with any sense realizes it’s not one vs. the other, but both combined, with each having sway to varying degrees depending on the situation. The “self defense blames the victim” crowd seem to want self defense left out, to only give women part of the tools needed. And that’s hateful as far as I’m concerned.
Madhambmatics
June 18, 2014 @ 2:17 pm
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/
It actually works. If you read the studies about the prevalence of rape in college campuses, there are a lot of people who admit that they have raped someone (“I had sex with a person that didn’t consent”) but don’t think it’s rape because society gives people a quiver of excuses about how “Woah, rape is bad, but having sex with a passed out isn’t rape because…” or “But everyone does this, it can’t be bad.”
These educational programs are targeting those people and their social groups. They are saying, no, that’s not normal – it’s actually sexual assault. Beyond that, they are saying that if you do these things, you aren’t going to find that everyone thinks you are just doing normal people stuff. You are “That Guy.” You are going to face stigmatization. So don’t do that. These campaigns also teach normal guys that if you see that stuff happening, you should call it out and shame the person doing it, not just shrug and move on.
Joris M
June 18, 2014 @ 2:17 pm
Yes there are likely people who won’t stop. But there are many people who happily rape because they don’t think what they do is rape. And with a bit of luck and a lot of persistence those might be reached.
And that same campaign that might reach them will also influence our future police and magistrates. Who are still too prone to try and find that the victim of rape failed and made a mistake.
S.M. Stirling
June 18, 2014 @ 2:18 pm
The useful analogy for rape isn’t drunk driving: it’s more like robbery with violence or threat thereof. The main difference is that it’s much easier to get away with.
Rapists don’t, for the most part, rape because they think it’s OK or not so much of a much. They know perfectly well it’s extremely bad, and either enjoy inflicting misery or are so self-involved that they can’t conceptualize other people as actual people, or, most common of all, just don’t give a crap. That’s the reason rape is so ubiquitous in prison.
It’s important not to assume that everyone would be good if they only knew the facts of the case, or is or could be like oneself.
A lot of people do bad things because they’re, well, -bad people-.
Don’t assume that there’s a well-integrated caring high-empathy person in there trying to get out and the poor lost soul just needs a helping hand or a lecture or a waggling, admonishing finger. What’s usually in there is a violent, intensely selfish moral imbecile. The smarter ones are manipulative liars who can imitate something else to avoid negative consequences but their real self is always waiting for an opportunity.
And human beings rarely change in any important way once they’re adults, unless something utterly personality-smashing happens to them. Believing otherwise is wishful.
So saying we have a “rape culture” is like saying we have a “mugging culture”; it’s true in a sense, but basically sort of meaningless. The fact of the matter is that a lot of people (especially men, and young men particularly) don’t care about others and have poor impulse control, leaving aside actual psychopaths and sociopaths.
It’s often said that rape is about violence and power, not about sex; to date myself, I was old enough to read Brownmiller et. al. when they came up with the concept in the 70’s. This is one of those statements that contains an important element of truth, but can be seriously misleading because it’s incomplete. It’s incomplete because it looks at rape purely from the victim’s perspective, and to the victim it’s pretty well true pretty much all of the time.
However, for the perpetrators, the situation is more complex. Some are motivated by hatred and fear of women (or by hatred and fear generally), or by outright sadism, or have serious cross-wiring problems in their brains that translate the sexual impulse into weird and destructive patterns.
But many more are simply sexual burglars/muggers. To them, it -is- about sex; the woman has it, they want it, so they take it the way they would money or a watch or a pastrami sandwich. The “theft” model (including drugging victims and so forth as well as outright violence or threat thereof) shades off into analogies to Stockholm Syndrome, confidence games and fraud, guilt-tripping and nagging, and thence into ordinary sexual bargaining. It’s a continuum.
In other words, the rapist is a normal man minus the superego controls and/or fear of detection and punishment that keep most from, for example, smashing store windows to take something they can’t afford or beating up and/or killing those who anger them.
At the other end of that spectrum, if you can find a het man who hasn’t at some point in his life flat-out lied to a woman to get sex under false pretences (pretended more affection than he felt, for example) you’ve got a very good microscope.
NB: there’s a dangerous tendency abroad in the land — dangerous because it trivializes a serious crime — to conflate rape with, for example, having sex while moderately drunk/stoned or having serious post-coitial regrets or realizing the guy is a complete asshole.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 2:21 pm
I can only think that you are slow. Rick Bennett didn’t see the relevance…” Of course I see the relevance. Now, you tell me, should a woman not use self defense techniques against someone she knows, trying to force themselves on her? Of course Domestic Violence situations are different in that they know the person. So, because they know them, they are supposed to what…? I say use those same self defense courses taught to women to ward off and escape the local crackhead hopped up and looking to rape on the husband, lover, father, brother, cousin, uncle, grandpa, grandma, sister, mother. Self Defense if taught properly is not just about punching, cutting, hitting, scratching, shooting, kicking, screaming, etc… Properly taught, it also teaches awareness of both situation and escape routes, it teaches how to make the most of what you have to get away from the situation as quick as possible. Doesn’t matter who is doing the attacking.
By the way, in case you didn’t know.. Larry isn’t white.
Nancy F
June 18, 2014 @ 2:33 pm
Thank you, James! I realize one can find a statistic to back just about anything, but you’ve found some good substantiation.
I can personally attest that firearm ownership is neither expensive or time-consuming, at least in WA state. CC license: $65. Small .38, a few hundred. Tactical defense class: $80 (? It was a few years ago) Range time a few times a year just to keep the muscle memory: free to a few bucks.
It’s not for everyone, but it irks me to see people discouraged from investigating that route by folks who oppose legally-owned weapons for whatever reasons.
Lisa Smith
June 18, 2014 @ 2:36 pm
I’m getting the impression that a lot of LC’s defenders here haven’t spent a lot of time dealing with the realities of sexual assault, talking to survivors, etc.
I’m a survivor. I communicate with other survivors a lot. I’m seeing a lot of assumptions here that just don’t match my experience or the experience of many survivors I know.
For example, rapists tend to have excellent impulse control. Yes, I know that’s contrary to what many people think. But rapists don’t rape women in bikinis on the beach in front of lots of witnesses, do they? They don’t rape the woman who’s out with the football team she manages. Or the woman out with her three brothers and three sisters, all of whom are soldiers and/or cops. They go after the ones who can be separated from the herd, the ones who are less likely to be believed and supported. The drunk girl, the girl who everyone thinks is a “drama queen,” the one nobody really knows that well, or the one who’s being flirtatious at a party and will therefore be said to have been “asking for it.”
They use excellent impulse control to choose, test, and isolate their victims for a high rate of successful rape without consequence. Ask anybody who’s done the homework, read Lisak & Miller or McWhorter, talked to survivors. All the rest of this is speculation from people who have no skin in the game.
I do. So do your homework, realize the limitations behind the “make the potential victims work harder to avoid being victims and don’t lift a finger myself” proposals and choose your side. You can help make this society less hospitable to rapists, many of whom operate right in our own social circles…or you can let Jim feed you to the goblins.
Guess
June 18, 2014 @ 2:36 pm
wish you had an edit button… just read my post. The grammar is awful. I have to note this before Jim goes crazy. I’m not gay bashing. Just mocking the way liberal and conservative writers seem to get off on pissing and moaning about each other. Most of the time you all take each other out of context. So I am toying with making fun of all of you. Oh and if you delete the post, I’ll make it a 3 way with Vox Day. Just so I can try to get him to respond on his blog by saying ‘I did not have sexual relations with that liberal Jim Hines’.
Guess
June 18, 2014 @ 2:39 pm
Larry didn’t presume anything… he just said that some guys won’t listen and there are cases where self defense is the only option. The woman you chose as an example is a bad one. That being said… you have a right to defend yourself. You shouldn’t be intimidated due to discrimination not to defend yourself. Your not going to like this,but you could always join the NRA, they would back you in something like this.
Ken Marable
June 18, 2014 @ 2:39 pm
Reads article – sees 6 comments.
Looks a couple hours alter – sees 8 comments.
A couple hours later – 67 comments. Ug, here we go.
This pattern of response are so predictable is laughable. The masses of apologists drown out the signal with so much noise that it’s amazing there is ever any progress.
I know, let’s have another 8 posts accusing Jim of deleting anyone who disagrees with him! Or 20 posts echoing that Larry didn’t say what he actually said in the ACTUAL TITLE of the article! That sure adds to the conversation! *sigh*
I wonder why people are so vehemently against saying “Factually, more education does decrease rape. So let’s at least have more education.” Cue the angry masses defending poor Larry from being called out on what he actually said. Taking a step back and watching these things, you have to laugh (or cry) at just how predictable these conversations go. Every. Single. Time.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 2:48 pm
“…if you delete the post, I’ll make it a 3 way with Vox Day.”
I think this may be the most disturbing threat I’ve ever received.
Steve
June 18, 2014 @ 2:48 pm
I hope you will not find this question offensive, I really am curious to hear the answer not to put you on the spot. Do you believe that most of the people that have exhibited the predatory nature you have described in your post would have not committed the act had they had more education the issue on what is rape? What you are describing here sounds like a highly calculating, cold, predatory individual who a) knows exactly what they are doing b) premeditates the attack to minimize the chance of getting caught? I understand its not the issue is not simple, but this does not sound like the type of attack that would be stopped by any means other then physical means (either by the victim or others) or the person getting arrested post crime.
***sorry I double posted this below
Eben
June 18, 2014 @ 2:50 pm
Alexander also violated a restraining order to be in that home. She then violated a no contact order when she was attemting to influence her ex’s testimony and she also recieved an additional domestic abuse charge when she gave her ex a black eye(she pled no contest) and then lied to the police about that. Alexander and Gray are a bad couple. They are or were both violent to each other.
Guess
June 18, 2014 @ 2:51 pm
“I do. So do your homework, realize the limitations behind the “make the potential victims work harder to avoid being victims and don’t lift a finger myself” proposals and choose your side. You can help make this society less hospitable to rapists, many of whom operate right in our own social circles…or you can let Jim feed you to the goblins.”
This is apples and oranges. I don’t see anyone blaming the victim or telling you to work harder. I am going to be real careful with how I respond because I don’t want to cross any line…
I would argue that if someone is arguing ‘shoot the rapist’ you are making things alot less hospitable for him. I don’t see how arguing that its ok to shoot these guys is in anyway pointing the fingers at you. If you are at the point where the guy is actually in the act of raping a woman and no one else is around to help, you don’t have alot of options. No matter what kind of education you give some guys won’t listen. I don’t know if education would have worked on the guy who attacked you or not. However, I find it difficult to believe that this will work on all rapists.
You also state that most rapists have impulse control which implies to me that they are calculating scumbags. This to me makes them sound even worse. To me this makes teaching them not to rape to be even harder and less likely to work. I don’t agree with Larry that education won’t work at all. It will have limits. Some women need other options. If you don’t want to use those options that is your choice. However, they should be available to them.
Your post is well written, but it doesn’t really apply to what larry said…
Joris M
June 18, 2014 @ 2:51 pm
“NB: there’s a dangerous tendency abroad in the land — dangerous because it trivializes a serious crime — to conflate rape with, for example, having sex while moderately drunk/stoned or having serious post-coitial regrets or realizing the guy is a complete asshole.”
That is not as bad by orders of magnitude as the deeply ingrained habit of too many in our countries to trivialize and explain away rapes. With reasons as “they were young”; “they didn’t say no”; “they didn’t fight back”; “the way they are dressed they were asking for it”; “they were drunk” “oh, it is only regret”; “there was no force”;
And I am sad to say that your post is indicative of a huge problem that hurts many real victims.
Guess
June 18, 2014 @ 2:54 pm
glad you have a sense of humor. hope you vote my story for a hugo next year.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 2:54 pm
Steve – FYI, I deleted the duplicate comment below.
S.M. Stirling
June 18, 2014 @ 2:54 pm
Are you familiar with the term “identity-protective cognition”? Essentially, human beings are incapable of objective thought on any issue which involves their group identity or self-image.
aphra_behn
June 18, 2014 @ 2:55 pm
Not much to add but thanks, so much, for this post, Jim. Thanks for pushing back.
S.M. Stirling
June 18, 2014 @ 2:58 pm
Dude, you are not listening and not responding to what I said. ’cause you know, saying “you are so wrong and bad” is not really a productive way of approaching a disagreement. It makes actual conversation impossible.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 2:59 pm
A fallacy as well, since NO ONE has come here and said for people to shut up. What he have done is disprove the basis for Hines’ post.
S.M. Stirling
June 18, 2014 @ 3:02 pm
Why are you assuming that your experiences and those of people you talk to are statistically representative?
I helped teach a women’s self-defense group and was in law, both criminal and family (if there’s a difference). I met a lot of victims. I don’t assume they were a representative sample.
And neither should you.
There’s a reason why “anecdotal evidence” is a polite way of saying “worthless”.
“and choose your side”
— you know, this is sort of rhetorically skanky, because it contains an assumption that anyone who disagrees with your analysis is ignorant or morally bad, in fact “pro-rape”.
Nobody here is pro-rape.
Eben
June 18, 2014 @ 3:06 pm
Our courts also have this thing about innocent until proven guilty.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 3:09 pm
Sigh. Larry never said that education wont work in general. He said it wont work on men or women that have rape in mind and want to do it. And it wont. You have a habitual rapist, that gets his rocks off on inducing pain and terror, that likes the forcfully control the event for his/her satisfaction, and you can educate them till you grow gills and live on the bottom of the ocean. They are still gonna rape until stopped. And a bullet to the head is a great stop.
Ken- “the Larry defenders”…sorry, we see ourselves more as in agreement with him. Larrys a big boy, he can defend himself. Hines is a big boy, he can defend himself, presumably. And if Hines and your reading comprehension skils are so atrophied as to be unable to make a distinction between D and D situations and Rapey McRaperson out to rape someone…then we really can’t help you. But, while complaining that Larry’s “defenders” are here to stiffle the boards…. All hines has to do is stop using him to drive up his blog traffic.
Ken Marable
June 18, 2014 @ 3:09 pm
“The useful analogy for rape isn’t drunk driving: it’s more like robbery with violence or threat thereof.”
I think there is use in the analogy, however. Not for all cases of rape, certainly, but there is certainly use to it.
For example, the analogy of “robbery with violence of threat thereof” is certainly akin to the stranger lurking in the bushes rapists. Which is a reality and does need to be dealt with. Educating them, and educating others won’t help in those situations. (However, educating others like property owners and cities on the need for well lit parking lots, nighttime campus escorts, etc. etc. certainly can help.)
However, those aren’t the only rapes, by far. Date rape and other sexual assaults that many try to define as “not rape-rape” are real and just as damaging, just as violating, just as illegal as the stranger lurking in the bushes forms of sexual assault. However, in those cases, things like educating bystanders to step in and help does make a difference (see many links above). Educating men on the difference between “didn’t say no” and “affirmative consent” can make a difference. (Don’t know if there’s studies on that yet, but the benefit does seem to be an obvious one.)
Yes, it’s useless against the stranger in the bushes, but it can make a very large difference in cases of acquaintance rape. Educating bystanders to look out for each other is exactly the same as educating them to take a drunk person’s keys away. Educating someone that they should get clear, verbal, affirmative consent rather than just keep going until she says no is exactly the same as educating people that buzzed driving is drunk driving. Many can try to convince themselves that it’s not REALLY a crime, “This isn’t really rape” & “I’m not that drunk, I’m only buzzed and ok to drive” are perfectly analogous.
However, if you think rape ONLY occurs when there is a stranger lurking in the bushes preying on unsuspecting women, then of course it sounds like a bad analogy. The problem isn’t in the analogy, it’s in your definition of the crime being too narrow. It’s getting too caught up in “Well, it’s not rape-rape, it’s just ‘having sex while moderately drunk/stoned or having serious post-coitial regrets or realizing the guy is a complete asshole.'” Your far too narrow definition of rape is what’s dangerous. It doesn’t fit reality, and doesn’t even fit the law.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 3:12 pm
“And if Hines and your reading comprehension skils are so atrophied as to be unable to make a distinction between D and D situations and Rapey McRaperson out to rape someone…then we really can’t help you.”
Rick, this is crossing the dick line. Knock it off.
Cecily Kane
June 18, 2014 @ 3:13 pm
Holy hyperbole strawman!
First of all, it may interest you to know that I was first taught to use a firearm at the age of seven or thereabouts. I’m also a firm supporter of gun rights. But I’m a bigger supporter of reality.
I’m also in the class of people that cannot use a handgun safely due to a physical disability (thumb hypoplasia). That class probably represents a not-inconsiderable sum of people, from the blind to children to inmates in the correctional system to people suffering from disorders that affect the brain. So even if the hypothesis that more guns in women’s hands would deter raping able-bodied adults is correct, the predators would just move onto the more vulnerable populations.
But it’s not correct, for the reasons I stated and these others:
1) A substantial plurality if not the majority of rapes occur when the victim is unable to consent, such as while she is sleeping or too intoxicated to consent. A gun would not prevent these rapes.
2) A substantial plurality if not the majority of rapes are committed by a person the victim knows, trusts, and may even care about. A gun would prevent few to none of these rapes. Taking a human life has a good deal of gravity for most people, and especially a human that is known to you.
3) The scenarios described above constitute the huge majority of rapes — somewhere between 80-90%. So guns would do little to nothing to prevent the vast majority of rapes even using the most optimistic view possible.
Thanks to Jim for pointing out that the statistics you cited are actually bollocks. You know which ones aren’t? The fact that people who carry guns are almost five times more likely to get shot by guns.* I’ve read the original study this article quotes and the statistical methods are sound; the researchers control for variables like socioeconomic background.
And, finally, given that there is a good chance that a woman with a gun will be overpowered and have her gun taken from her, and given that shooting someone bigger than you during a physical struggle would take either a great deal of luck or training (this isn’t like stationary target practice), and given that guns escalate situations? I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my personal things-that-suck calculus, being murdered is worse than being raped. So, no thanks.
*http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
Joris M
June 18, 2014 @ 3:17 pm
It is not that you are wrong, it is that you going by the main bit that post seem to be staring so much at one subset of rapists that you trivialize the victims of the rapists that don’t fit into that box. And that attitude is made explicit in the NB.
Which is dangerously close to the mechanisms that allows rapists to move amongst us.
Alexvdl
June 18, 2014 @ 3:32 pm
I like this comment. Very nicely done.
David Baker
June 18, 2014 @ 3:33 pm
I can explain the difference between the leftist response to Larry Correia’s piece, “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape,” and the thinking person’s response to it.
Larry was very clear. It’s stupid to try to teach RAPISTS not to rape. Rapists are sexual predators, and there’s a reason they do what they do. With a few exceptions, sexual predators are irredeemably evil. The best response to a RAPIST who attempts to commit rape is a knee to the groin or (in extreme circumstances) a bullet to the forehead.
Larry was not saying that it’s stupid or naive to teach MEN (or boys) not to rape. Nothing wrong with education. Nothing wrong with making sure that men and boys are informed about the acceptable boundaries of their actions.
Thinking people know that a very small subset of men and boys are RAPISTS. So they see Larry’s piece as an acceptance of the fact that, no matter how much education you throw at this small subset, they will still attempt to prey on girls and women. For the small subset of men and boys who can’t be educated, women and girls benefit from knowing how to deliver that kick to the groin or bullet to the forehead.
Leftists, on the other hand, believe that all men are RAPISTS. And that’s why Larry’s title (and the rest of his piece) is so darned offensive.
J Brown
June 18, 2014 @ 3:37 pm
I don’t usually jump into these things, but… Here goes nothing.
I think the truth is one of those things somewhere in between. Women should be educated, in awareness, in self defense, in self confidence which all help to keep them safer. Women need to know that they can stay stop at any point, even if there was a moment of yes. Women need to respect men without being afraid of them.
Men should be educated that women are people, not objects, that it is not okay to take what you want just because you want it, that no means no and pretty much anything that isn’t an enthusiastic yes, also means no, and that yes once does not mean yes always. A woman who tells you to stop isn’t playing, isn’t teasing and if you think she is ASK her don’t assume. Educate that no, all women don’t have rape fantasies and sometimes when a woman is acting uncomfortable or odd you need to have the self control and respect to stop and find out if they are really okay, or afraid.
Both should be taught to talk to each other, being sure doesn’t ruin the mood or the experience.
When something bad is happening to someone else have the courage to do something about it, whether it is to get directly involved or get on the phone and call for help.
Now, the pro and con of self defense and guns. I’m self defense trained. Martial arts trained. I learned to shoot when I was 6. I often carry concealed. I learned sword and knife work as a teenager. I’m 5’11” and built. So according to the idea the self defense fixes it all I shouldn’t even be eligible as an assault candidate and yet I’ve been there twice.
The self defense stuff…it’s pretty easy to call on when assault comes out of left field or is a stranger. I’ve shouted down men who were taller and bigger built, no problem. I’ve stepped up in defense of others and made the calls that brought in help.
But when you are dealing with someone that you honestly have feelings for, or has a very specific economic or social position of power over you (both situations that are very common in sexual assault and rape issues), it’s not so easy. When you are in that awful moment where everything goes very wrong, your first thought is not I should shoot my boyfriend/date/boss/coworker/etc in the head or break his ribs?
You try to talk, you try to reason, you try to escape. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t.
So again, long and short of it, it takes both. Ronald Regan said “Trust, but verify.” Maybe in these situations we have to say, “Educate, and defend.”
Nicholas K
June 18, 2014 @ 3:37 pm
The campaigns don’t work by convincing rapists that they shouldn’t be rapists. Not primarily, at least.
They work by reducing the social support of rapists and distrust of rape victims, and by correcting misconceptions about what rape is and how it works. An environment that is friendly to victims and hostile to rapists, and in which people understand and reject the tactics rapists use to discredit their victims, is an environment in which rapists are less powerful.
And this does indeed reduce the incidence of actual rapes.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 3:38 pm
David,
1. You’re crossing the dick line. Knock it off or go away.
2. I pointed to two studies, and there are many more, showing that this “very small subset” could be 5% or more of men — men who have acknowledged attempting or committing rape. Are you advocating a bullet to the head for this “small subset” of 1 in 20 men? Do you truly believe so many of us are so innately monstrous?
G Man
June 18, 2014 @ 3:39 pm
“NB: there’s a dangerous tendency abroad in the land — dangerous because it trivializes a serious crime — to conflate rape with, for example, having sex while moderately drunk/stoned or having serious post-coitial regrets or realizing the guy is a complete asshole.”
Agreed, and I do think that there should be more talks about consent and agency here, as there is a very large spectrum that are all being shoved together under the word “rape”. So, I suggest we start on defining what it is, per Dictionary.com:
1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
Granted, these are just widely recognized definitions of the word, they are not the definition of the criminal act (which will vary based upon local laws). These definitions hint at the issues of agency and consent. In particular, the third states that we are using abritory ages (that social has agreed upon through law) to define who has agency and when they can and can’t give consent.
In your quote, you are specifically calling into question when people can give consent. Some do believe that if someone is drunk or stoned (and again, use vague terms and definitions there of, as different people will have different biochemical reactions even at different blood alcohol levels) that they are unable to give consent. So, if they have sex in that state, it is rape, even if they otherwise wanted it to happen at the time. But again, consent is a very large spectrum including: “yeah, I want this more than anything else in my life, and will scream it from the rafters” to “I’m not really in the mood, but will warm up to the idea while in progreses” to “Do Not Want, now or ever”, with a lot of points in between. One of the big problems I see with a lot of these conversations is that this is a very subjective subject and not all of the players will agree on what is right or wrong in the middle grey area (or when people can or are able to give consent and have agency). But that is par and parcel with any talk of a very nuanced subject and trying to reduce it to generalities, more so with a topic this subjective.
If we want to talk about education, it is one thing to talk about consent in an intelligent manner. However, I’m not a big fan of any campaigns that imply that I, due to my gender, may be unable to control my urges and become a criminal (and also support and feed into the theory of rape culture).
David Baker
June 18, 2014 @ 3:41 pm
Shame on you, Chesterton, for cutting right to the core of the argument and presenting it in a straightforward way!
Commerson's Dolphin
June 18, 2014 @ 3:42 pm
Jim, you’re got quite the heaping helping of fortitude to leave the comments open on this one.