LC on Rape and Self Defense
ETA: Conversation seems to be going nowhere, with people repeating the same points, desperately trying to get the last word, or just insulting people they disagree with. I don’t see much in the way of productive comments/discussion at this point, so I’m turning off the comments. There may be a follow-up post if I have time, or there may not. Depends on deadlines…
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So apparently Miss Nevada said something about the importance of awareness and self-defense for women, some people responded with varying degrees of anger on Twitter, and Larry Correia chose to respond with a blog post called “The Naive Idiocy of Teaching Rapists Not To Rape.”
I’m not gonna waste a lot of time here, and I’ll preface this by noting that as someone who studies and teaches self-defense, I have nothing against people learning to protect themselves.
- Self-defense isn’t and can’t be the only answer. If it is, we’re basically telling everyone who isn’t physically or emotionally capable of fighting off every attacker, no matter how much power that attacker might have over them, that they’re on their own. Sucks to be them, eh?
- How many self-defense courses teach that you’re vastly more likely to be raped by a friend, acquaintance, or loved one? How many courses actually prepare you to use the kind of force you need to use against someone you like or love?
- To LC’s claim that rape culture is a myth and we’re just dealing with individual, isolated criminals, and that all of those studies have been debunked (in which he omitted any links or citations to the alleged debunking … strange, considering how grumpy he is about people supposedly “ignoring reality”):
- A study of 1800+ college men found that roughly 1 in 20 admitted to attempting or committing sexual assault. There are 138 million men in the U.S. Assuming 76% of them are 18 0r older (college age), then statistically, it’s good to know that “only” about 5+ million of them have attempted or committed sexual assault, eh? (Not counting those who begin raping in high school or earlier…)
- Or you could look at this 2007 study that found 1 in 20 college women were raped in a single year. Now extrapolate that to four years in college.
- Oh look, another study about men admitting rape, but this time it’s 1 in 16 men.
- Here’s a National Institute of Justice study that found roughly 1 in 5 women experienced rape or attempted rape at least once in their life.
- There’s a lot more actual research and data out there, but you get the idea.
- Finally, on the “naive idiocy” of teaching men not to rape, I’m gonna just quote from an old blog post:
- If only we had information showing that education can be effective in reducing sexual assault and rape-enabling behaviors/attitudes, not to mention research on how debunking rape myths can increase bystander intervention, or that “Men who consume alcohol two or more times a week and who have peer support for behaving in an emotionally violent manner toward women and for being physically and sexually violent toward women are 10 times more likely to commit sexual aggression toward women.”
Correia is right that there are a lot of different kinds of predators out there. When it comes to sexual assault, the majority of them are men, and they’re far more likely to be someone the victim knows. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, yet for as long as I’ve been working with rape survivors and speaking out about rape, there have been countless people insisting that the Only True Solution is to turn all women into gun-toting ninjas.
I don’t understand the fear some people — again, this seems to be primarily men — have when it comes to looking at other solutions. Instead of reading the research, they just proclaim that education will never work, because reasons. They ignore the pervasiveness of rape myths, the myriad approaches to things like bystander intervention, the utterly broken way our legal system treats rape, and all of the other factors that contribute to the prevalence of rape in our society.
There’s nothing new in LC’s rant. It’s the same attitude we’ve seen for ages, an attitude that conveniently puts the burden on victims to end rape, oversimplifies the problem, and allows the rest of us to look away and pretend there isn’t a real or widespread problem here, despite countless studies showing otherwise.
Some of you are aware of the current conversation in SF/F fandom about several Big Names who sexually assaulted hundreds of children, and how fandom stood by and let it happen, despite there being multiple eyewitnesses to these assaults. Call me a naive idiot, but I wonder how many children would have escaped those assaults if others in fandom had intervened or reported them or enforced any kind of consequences, anything to teach the perpetrators that this kind of behavior was unacceptable.
I wonder how many victims we’re continuing to turn our back on today because we assume there’s no point in doing anything to intervene.
Alexvdl
June 18, 2014 @ 3:45 pm
I don’t think that’s quite the trenchant riposte that you think it is, as it cust both ways, and certainly applies to the massive influx of readers from Correia’s site commenting on this thread.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 3:47 pm
Mostly open. One comment has been eaten by goblins, and two other individuals have gotten warnings.
Alexvdl
June 18, 2014 @ 3:48 pm
Telling people to shut up is only one of many ways to shut down conversation. Flooding the thread is another.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 3:54 pm
As Alexvdl said, flooding the thread is a means of shutting down conversation. Another very popular one is the aggressive use of strawman arguments and attempts to derail the conversation, which a number of people and you in particular have been doing with great enthusiasm.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 4:01 pm
That was cogent and well-stated, but suffers from the problem that you are stating a LOT of theories without evidence. If you’re going to make broad assumptions about the mental character of rapists and deny the significance of rape culture in the overall social issue, you need to offer facts upon which these conclusions are based.
I don’t mean to belittle your reasoning, which is quite solid as I see it, but correct reasoning launched from incorrect data can only lead to incorrect conclusions.
J Brown
June 18, 2014 @ 4:02 pm
Yes and then some. There are a lot of different kinds of situations and different ways to address them. Though I think that being assaulted by someone you know is not just as damaging and violating, I would gently assert that it is -more- so. Particularly when it’s someone who is part of a social circle that one cannot simply walk away from, such as family or work scenarios.
And I think part of what makes it very hard to address rape is that the situations can be so different from the aggressive assault to a misunderstanding that none the less resulted in damage done, often to both parties.
Tom Monaghan
June 18, 2014 @ 4:05 pm
Repeated whining also derails conversation something you’re guilty of in at least 2 of your 4 comments.
Cheryl
June 18, 2014 @ 4:07 pm
As a rape survivor I find it stupid to not teach slef defense. The point of can you use it on someone you love or know. Yes, I can and will. Oh and I am disabled so most of the other run and get away solutions that people bandy about just don’t work for me. Obviously the op of this opinion never read what Mr. Correia said or they wouldn’t be so far off on what they claim was said and what never was said that they claim was.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:07 pm
Tom – Knock it off. You’re just being a dick here. That will get you booted next time.
po
June 18, 2014 @ 4:08 pm
>>>And even if it was, he didn’t write a blog post talking about his community. His comments were about rape in general.<<<
See, I read both the intent and words of his post to be attacking & mocking those who felt that mentioning self-defense is victim-blaming or the wrong thing to do. (never mind that Miss USA merely mentioned her black belt as a reason for her confidence, not the be-all-end-all solution to rape) They were NOT about Rape in general, but attacking the arguments of those specific tweets. I.e, that merely teaching not to rape will solve all possible rape. The title may not be the best, but you seem to be grossly misreading his post, and assigning meaning that he was not.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 4:08 pm
Since we’re doing this, characterizing the statements of those who disagree as “whining” is an ad hominem fallacy, an attempted derailment, and makes you look like a jerk.
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:10 pm
How, precisely, is a rapist to know whether or not someone is physically able to defend themselves? You can’t effectivley grip a handgun due to a disability? That may be obvious by looking at you, but is your disability so bad you can’t use a knife? other stabbing implement? Swing a cane? Use a small ball bearing on a string as a mini-mace? Use pepper spray?Are you completely defensless?
Only if you make yourself that way! Firearms are the most effective tool of self defense, but not the ONLY one!
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:10 pm
“As a rape survivor I find it stupid to not teach slef defense.”
I’m a bit confused as to who you’re talking to, since I don’t think anyone here has advocated not teaching self defense…
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:11 pm
This particular subthread has gotten pointless, and I’m declaring it dead.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:14 pm
No. We believe a good rapist is a dead rapist. Period.
RJ
June 18, 2014 @ 4:18 pm
I’m not sure why this issue is being turned into an us vs them. You are both on the same side, advocating for a suite of tools to prevent rape. You both believe in educating first, you both believe that education isn`t foolproof, but I feel like Correia believes education is very fallible. The only disagreement is on whether or not firearms should be in that suite of tools.
Neither of you seem to be able to look beyond this hatred for each others politics. You are only interested in drawing a line in the sand and making people choose sides. Insteading of adding to each other constructively, you turn this into an us vs them. I guess it is naive of me to expect any better from either of you two
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 4:18 pm
I think this is starting to devolve into a “defense vs. education” debate, which seems to me to be missing the point. I don’t believe anyone here is downplaying the importance of self-defense in protecting against rape and violence in general.
As has been pointed out, neither effective self-defense nor effective social education will eliminate the problem. Both in conjunction won’t. To be honest, I doubt anything truly will. Furthermore, placing excessive emphasis on either approach is problematic: idolizing self-defense puts the onus on the victim to be responsible for what a rapist does to them, while over-hyping the educative approach underestimates the complexity of the human behaviors that lead to rape. However, the fact that none of these options is a magic pill does not mean they aren’t helpful. They are both effective weapons against rape, and frankly, we need every last one of those.
Others have spoken on the efficacy of education and cited data supporting it. Why, then, are some folks invested in thwarting attempts to educate? Seriously, who benefits from that? Only rapists. As Stirling aptly pointed out, nobody here is pro-rape. Let’s not toss out a valuable tool in our zeal to be right in the argument.
Kit
June 18, 2014 @ 4:20 pm
Oddly enough, Angua, the argument to do both is exactly the argument Corriea is making. When Ms. Nevada suggested learning self defense there were a lot of cries that she was wrong & a bad person for suggesting it. Larry’s post was a critique of those cries for education only. He never said don’t educate – he said add self defense education for women to “don’t be bad” education for men.
The people Larry was arguing against are the ones trying to make them mutually exclusive.
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:21 pm
“The only disagreement is on whether or not firearms should be in that suite of tools.”
Sigh. Please read more closely before coming back with your condescending disapproval, thanks.
Veronica Schanoes
June 18, 2014 @ 4:22 pm
Your blithe assumption that women not being believed is no longer a widespread problem is so disconnected from the reality of women’s experiences of sexual assault that I simply can’t take anything you say seriously.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 4:23 pm
Apologies, Jim, your comment popped up as I was typing or I wouldn’t have posted anything.
Lisa Smith
June 18, 2014 @ 4:23 pm
Steve, thank you for your care in posting that question. I’m not offended at all.
The short answer is: I don’t know.
In that group of people who use those behaviors, there may be some who believe that what they’re doing is “scoring” and not raping. There may be others who know damn well it’s rape and don’t care.
But in the two studies I cited in my original post of college-aged men (one group in two college campuses, the other Navy non-officer recruits), the results were uncomfortably similar. In the first, about 6% or so of the respondents admitted to acts consistent with rape or attempted rape. One-third of them admitted to having done that only once, but two-thirds admitted repeated acts. In the second study, the overall number was closer to 13% but the internal proportions mimicked those in the first study: one-third were one-time offenders, two-thirds were repeaters.
That suggests to me that there are potential offenders who might well be educated out of committing sexual assault.
The other portion of undetected offenders might not be educated out of committing sexual assault, but widespread education about sexual assault, consent, etc., also has the effect of educating bystanders. The more bystanders who act in ways that make it difficult for undetected rapists to operate, the more likely it is that those offenders will either escalate to methods more likely to result in arrest and incarceration, or reduce their predatory behavior b/c they can no longer get away with it.
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:24 pm
Oh, there was more to your argument….
1) Yes, it is difficult to defend yourself if your incapacitated. So those plurality of victims that AREN’T incapacitated wouldn’t benefit from defending themselves?
2) Firearm injuries only have a 27% mortality rate… Chances are the poor poor rapist would survive…
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2014/01/band/
And most self defenst training includes a mental aspect. If someone is hurting you, you hurt them right back until either they stop, or you can get away. An your friend/relative/etc. is not your friend when they’re hurting you…
3) your “optimistic view” isn’t very optimistic……. And all the generic situations you described could mostly be remidied with basic training, which is what LC advocates….
Here’s your last paragraph out the window….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkJg52H61hc
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:25 pm
I am proudly jerky to people that would take away a woman’s tool to defend herself in the name social/political correctness. The name is Cranky McBasstard on Facebook. And I’m proud to wear it when up against people that would cripple the effor for women to fight back any way they can so they can look good to their social set.
Veronica Schanoes
June 18, 2014 @ 4:25 pm
Because predators don’t randomly select targets from the phone book. They actually do some stalking and observation, and then they set scenes. And boyfriends and husbands do tend to know one’s personal info.
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:26 pm
YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT PEOPLE WERE MORE COMFORTABLE TELLING A RESEARCHER IN A PHONE INTERVIEW THAT THEY STOPPED A RAPE WITH A FIREARM THAN THEY ARE TELLING THEM THEY WERE RAPED!!?!?!?!!???
*this is my shocked face* :0
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:28 pm
If you’re going to be proudly jerky, do it elsewhere. Not here.
Ken Marable
June 18, 2014 @ 4:29 pm
“Though I think that being assaulted by someone you know is not just as damaging and violating, I would gently assert that it is -more- so. Particularly when it’s someone who is part of a social circle that one cannot simply walk away from, such as family or work scenarios.”
Agree 100%. Rethinking, I might have worded it better with “at least as.” I agree that it is most likely far more damaging. For the point I was trying to make, I intentionally went with the weaker claim (and easier to defend) claim, but meant to leave open the possibility that it could indeed be worse. So, like I said, take my statement as “at least as bad as the stranger in the bushes.”
The full range of cases does make it difficult, and a lot of this debate probably arises because one group of people thinking that the other group is completely ignoring important cases of rape. But it is does include a wide range of cases as you state.
However, given the historical reality of how rape has been viewed, I don’t think it’s an equal issue on each side. Between a) trying to overcome the massive historical momentum concerning “rape-rape vs. not-really-rape” (a battle still being waged) and b) the evidence that acquaintance rape is far, far more common – I think the greater emphasis on that side and ways to prevent that are quite justified. Of course there are strangers in the bushes, but we have spent far more time and effort working to prevent those scenarios than we have acquaintance rape cases – which wasn’t even a common concept not that long ago and many still deny it exists!
So I’m still confused why people are so up in arms over trying to reduce the cases of rape that are both more common and have historically been ignored. (And, fyi, that’s not addressing you, but in general with this thread. Just to be clear.)
Jim C. Hines
June 18, 2014 @ 4:31 pm
I mean to tell you that maybe you should actually read these things to make sure you understand what they actually say before you run around citing them. Otherwise, you end up looking rather foolish.
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:32 pm
Which is precisely why most conceal carry classes advocate NOT telling anyone EVEN YOUR FRIENDS that you conceal carry… Some of us staunchly disobey that training (hi, I’m a conceal carrier) but those meeting new people usually don’t advertise the fact that they’re armed.
Knives are stupidly easy to conceal, and there are improvised weapons everywhere you look. I could probably kill you with at least 2 dozen things within arms reach of me right now (and I’m at work in a cubicle… and not “armed”…)
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:33 pm
Call it dickery if you like. I call it an honest assessment of your postion. Either you are not getting what we have repeatedly said, or you don’t want to. Either way, feel free to delete.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 4:35 pm
1. How was it “crossing the dick line”? Please explain.
2. He doesn’t believe it, but you seemed to assume it was true. Well, until he suggested a solution, at which point you became very uncomfortable with your own numbers. Hmmmm….
Sally
June 18, 2014 @ 4:35 pm
Yes, exactly!
We used to have the custom of “one for the road”. One last drink just before you leave the party, right before you get into the car. That was what you did, regardless of your social position. When’s the last time you heard of that in general, decent society? Nope, either someone’s the designated driver or you say “Nope, gonna leave in about an hour, better not have any more drinks.”
Sure, Bad People (TM) still do that. But it’s not the cultural norm. Nice People (TM) don’t. And they speak up about it, taking away keys and calling cabs.
In basically one generation, the ideas of driving after having booze and smoking wherever you want have become frowned upon by Polite Society. I’m the age of the littlest kids in “Mad Men” and remember those days myself.
People smoked on planes, in hospital rooms, in stranger’s houses. There were ads on TV. Ashtrays were a standard craft item for little kids to make for Mother’s Day.
So these efforts are to a) empower the victims and b) take away any cover and social support that non-consensual sex doers (terrible phrase, but) currently have.
Rapists are still gonna rape. But nice guys are going to realize that rape isn’t just “knife wielding stranger hiding in the bushes”. When frat bros stop cheering on the guys who get girls so drunk that they can’t resist, and feel like they can stop that from happening, we’ll see a lot less problems for everyone. When the automatic response to blame the victim (in overt or subtle ways) is no more…
Well, gosh, people still smoke, but there’s no haze on airplanes any more. And there’s a nice ashtray on my back porch. Enjoy the lounge chair. It’s got a drink holder.
Lisa Smith
June 18, 2014 @ 4:35 pm
On the contrary, SM, I believe you and other people posting here are consciously anti-rape. You want to help, as evidenced by your participation in self-defense education.
I don’t think self-defense education is bad at all.
I do think, however, that repeated instructions to women to do the work of avoiding rape don’t happen in a vacuum. Women are told from the moment we can walk how to avoid rape, and it doesn’t seem to have helped much. If we don’t fight back we really wanted it. If we do fight back, we risk increased injury or worse, not to mention that many predators are skilled manipulators who will convince others that the ‘woman went crazy on me!’ when she fought back. We get questioned about what we were wearing, why we went to that place at that time of day/night, why we let a trusted person in our homes, why we fought back, why we didn’t. In large ways and small, survivors are blamed and shamed in ways that you might not necessarily see if you aren’t the target of that behavior.
Not all survivors go through this or go through it to the same degree–if it ain’t about you, just set it aside and save it for the person it IS for.
I’m saying “choose your side” not because I think you’re pro-rape, but because even the most well-meaning people need a real wake-up call that the ways they have been taught to think about rape and rape prevention ARE NOT WORKING. I’m tired of exhausting myself privileging everyone else’s sensitivities above my safety and well-being. I’m tired of having half of my considerable life-span and the experiences therein dismissed by people who have never had to deal with this issue (clearly, that’s NOT you here, but oh sweet Cthulhu, have I had tons of that over my life!).
I’m saying “choose your side” because we’re finally finding things that work in a societal teachable moment, and dammit, I wish to hell I didn’t have skin in this game but I do. Choose your side and be part of the things that are working. Self-defense can be PART of that but please, people need to stop telling us that because we’ve heard it and heard it and heard it and we still get raped.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:36 pm
Then why attack Larry when he said that Teaching Rapists wont work and self defense is needed? Why defend people that said a young woman advocating self defense is blaming the victim?
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:40 pm
” idolizing self-defense puts the onus on the victim to be responsible for what a rapist does to them,”
Why? Why does it make the victim responsible? Who, other that the rather vapid nutcases that went so vehemently after Ms. Nevada says that because they know self defense and get raped, it’s there fault? I haven’t seen a single soul that advocates self defense say that. Everyone is blaming the rapist. So I really don’t see your reasoning there. Citations please.
Sean(Houston) (@Cotyleus)
June 18, 2014 @ 4:41 pm
” I am really tempted to write some fan fiction about Larry and John at a conference together in Colorado. Someone feeds each of them a ‘happy brownie’ they then lose all inhibition and jump each other. To the point that the fans are going ‘dude get a room’. See if I can get a hugo for best fan writer. I figure the conservatives will vote for me because I am making fun of Jim and the liberals will wuv me for making fun of Larry. The real kicker is who ends up on top. As a good story teller, I’ll keep that to myself and won’t release spoilers.”
Oh god! stooooppp. ROFLOLOL
Sally
June 18, 2014 @ 4:41 pm
Word, Veronica. (I know that’s old slang, but I’m old)
Women are still not believed and blamed for it all the time. It’s marginally better now than it was decades ago, but the majority of times, it’s still bad. Victim blaming, victim shaming, accusations of lying — it’s all happening every day, from rural conservative areas to big liberal cities.
Rick Bennett
June 18, 2014 @ 4:44 pm
And, who is investing in thwarting education? We have simply said that it WILL NOT WORK on those intending to do evil and rape. Please give citations on who has attempted to thwart education.
Lisa Smith
June 18, 2014 @ 4:44 pm
See my reply to another commenter above, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I do, in fact, think self-defense can be part of the plan for some women. But people tend to throw that “solution” around as if it’s the last thing that ever needs to be said, then walk away. Some people have significant barriers to the ability to deploy self-defense techniques safely…and that includes the chance that they’ll be arrested for assaulting their assaulted. (People who are marginalized in multiple ways are punished for fighting back more than most of us want to think.)
And like I said above, I don’t think there’s a woman in this country (or elsewhere) who hasn’t been fed a steady diet of “how to avoid rape” advice from the time she was barely out of diapers, and it’s NOT WORKING. Maybe it’s time we as a society focused our attention on the other end of the equation and put our energies there. We know more about the ways predators work than we ever did, what methods the ones who never get caught use, and how to spot them. (It’s not easy, but there are some tells.) Educating people might not work on the ones who do it because they like it, but it will make it far harder for them to operate right under our noses, because more bystanders will understand the tells they see and be able to do something. People who can’t get away with doing thing X may stop doing thing X because they don’t want to go to prison, not out of the kindness of their hearts.
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:44 pm
I read it. Yes people’s research often doesn’t jive with other people’s research. That’s why we do more research…
Let’s take the wikipedia DGU article. It clearly illustrates the differing methodologies.
It also clearly says the absolutely low end estimate is 55,000 times a year!
You’ll also note, there is the EXACT SAME issues with rape. The estimates range from .2% to 25+%! Primary difference, is very few people are out to proove that rape doesn’t happen very often, while a lot MORE people are out to proove that guns are icky and are never used by good guys…
Did I mention the highest estimate for defensive gun uses was a group hired to disproove defensive gun uses?
Sean(Houston) (@Cotyleus)
June 18, 2014 @ 4:45 pm
Mr Hines, probably the most interesting anyway.
Guess…hell man. people would probably pay good money to read that. 3way love affair between Vox Day, Larry Correia and Jim Hines? Set in a convention? Actually a friend of mine did that. It was a smaller bitty sub plot running through out the story, but the “affair” was between a characterization of Eric Flint and…I think the other one was supposed to be David Drake.
Sally
June 18, 2014 @ 4:48 pm
Won’t someone think of the menz?!
I’d be pretty darn angry if anyone said that the men I know only behaved themselves at home and became drunk rapey bastards when they met girls and booze. Are men really that weak and lacking in self-control and decency? The demon rum and the presence of the lay-deez overwhelms them so much that they just gotta forget all morality they ever knew?
Wow. Poor men. I’d no idea they were so helpless and delicate. Jim, should you be let alone to wander around the world? I mean, I hear there’s a lot of booze and pretty ladies in Australia, and you went there without an adult chaperone!
Cecily Kane
June 18, 2014 @ 4:50 pm
Actually a knife would be pretty dangerous, too. I have sliced my fingers open many a-times cutting vegetables.
And firearms are *not* (generally) the best tool for self-defense against rape, as I’ve pointed out using logic and citing data. I’m not arguing against self-defense, or against the general concept of self-defense using firearms. I am specifically arguing that firearms are generally a poor tool for rape prevention.
But really, the crux of my argument is that for most rapes, there is no external tool* that’s effective for prevention, given that in most (i.e. the VAST majority of) rapes either the victim is unconscious or the assailant is known to and trusted by the victim — meaning that chances are, any weapons are going to be out of reach.
There’s a comment somewhere here in which a survivor points out that she has a concealed and carry and is trained in self-defense and yet still was assaulted twice. I suggest reading it.
Finally, I trust the University of Pennsylvania’s research methodologies a hell of a lot more than some dude on YouTube with a political agenda.
*As opposed to martial arts and general self-defense training, which may help in some cases.
Lisa Smith
June 18, 2014 @ 4:51 pm
Once again, people, I don’t think that anybody advocating self-defense is pro-rape. I think people who advocate self-defense and think that’s it, without knowing the context that survivors live in, the pervasive blame-and-shame we get, and the way most undetected repeat predators operate, is adding to the unintentional message that rape prevention is the responsibility of potential targets. That message, no matter how unintentional, has some very ugly unintentional consequences that many of us survivors have to live with.
Just because you don’t intend to step on my foot doesn’t mean it’s not broken when you land on it.
I think it might help if I post the link to one of my favorite blog posts about how undetected rapists operate. These people maneuver right around us and many of us see but don’t connect the dots or know we can help. http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
James
June 18, 2014 @ 4:56 pm
Rape statistics are often varry significantly!
Some studies say about .5% of women are raped in their lifetimes, other say that 25% are…. Just as I’m sure your link says 1 in 5 men rape, I’m sure I can find one that says 1 in 100 rape…
What IS certain, is that if a reasonable person is in fear of their life or grevious bodily harm and iminenence is imminent (and in some states there is absolutely no way to escape the situation) any rape victim is well within their legal and moral rights to put a bullet in the head of their rapist from the time they are attacked up to the point where they are done with their rapey ways…
Zachary Hill
June 18, 2014 @ 4:56 pm
Mr. Hines, I do believe that you’re misrepresenting Mr. Correia’s post. He wasn’t saying that education isn’t a useful tool in combating rapes, only against certain rapists. He was also defending the notion of self defense against people that say self defense shouldn’t be allowed. (Brady Campaign is a great example of that where they literally say it’s better to be raped than fight back.) I think your point would have been made better and more clear if you hadn’t made a strawman out of Mr. Correia and claim he said things he didn’t say.
D. D. Webb
June 18, 2014 @ 5:03 pm
Read some of the links and studies that have been posted before you make statements about how education doesn’t work, please. Making assertions that have been shown to be factually untrue doesn’t lend credibility to your case.
Regarding your point above, though, that’s an interesting one and could get potentially deeper into the philosophies of personal responsibility than may be relevant here. However, you raise an issue that deserves to be considered.
Obviously, no one is responsible for a rape but the rapist. I don’t think anybody here disagrees with that. Where I believe you err is in trying to examine the phenomenon of rape separate from its social context. Nothing that people do occurs in a vacuum. If you assert that the only effective, necessary or appropriate deterrent to rape or any other violent crime (and my apologies if that’s not your intent), then everybody else is absolved of any responsibility. If someone is assaulted, well, that’s just what happens to folks who aren’t able to defend themselves. Shrug. It may not quite be victim-blaming (in some contexts), but it’s at least painfully close.
And it’s naive. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that you’re right and a person who rapes is just wrong in the head and can’t be fixed. So we can’t educate them, fine. There’s a lot more to the matter of rape culture than just rapists; it’s a political and social climate in which rapists can get away with it. You can talk all you want about how they should get bullets in the head on the spot, but in reality, what they very often get is a slap on the wrist if anything.
Education doesn’t just make the rapists go away. It helps us all to prevent them from striking in the first place, and prevent them from getting away with it if they do. And THAT makes them more hesitant to make the attempt. Educating people in how to protect themselves is part of the equation. Educating them in how to respect one another is another. Both are needed.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 5:09 pm
Wow, you do have a habit of putting words in other people’s mouths, and using the results to make some nasty insinuations.
You should stop that.
PavePusher
June 18, 2014 @ 5:10 pm
And of course that’s not at all what he said. Feel free to try reading comprehension again.
Brad
June 18, 2014 @ 5:14 pm
My “blithe assumption” is based on the lack of evidence of this being a widespread problem today. If you can cite credible studies that this is happening in large numbers across the nation, I will gladly examine those studies and adjust my views accordingly. I specifically said I think the problem still exists, and that it absolutely needs to be dealt with. Your decision to reject everything else I say because of your disagreement with my view is in no way an indictment of my statements, but rather demonstrates an unwillingness to continue a conversation the minute someone steps out of line with your own viewpoints. I could have easily said that your using Alexander as an example of a victim who got in trouble for defending herself was so off-base that I simply can’t take anything else you say seriously, but I didn’t. Instead, I presented my differing view, based on the evidence presented at her trial. I wish you luck in your future attempts at interacting with humanity, all of whom are going to disagree with you on something, some time. Eventually, there’ll be no one on the planet that you can take seriously. The unfortunate side-effect is that they’ll all probably return the favor.
Andrew
June 18, 2014 @ 5:20 pm
Hey Jim,
I’m a survivor.
I’m trying to think of a way to say this that isn’t going to either sound like I’m an MRA or that I’m trying to invalidate the good work you do with other survivors. But I really think the way this issue has become political and how I see you contributing to that is really… uh… not okay.
I think you’re probably a good dude. I can’t imagine you not being a good dude given the amount of work you do with survivors and the depressing toll I know that work takes. BUT (I know you were probably sensing a but, and I’m sorry to have to do this in a thread where you’re already taking a pummeling) I’m going to step on your toes a bit here.
I’m doing it because I think you’ll listen and because it needs to be said.
Okay, here goes:
Why are you focusing on Larry Correia?
I just don’t get this.
At all.
Why are you responding to a piece by a guy who thinks rape is wrong and just disagrees with you on the exact nature of the problem and the solution? I’m not saying those aren’t large gaps. I’m not saying I don’t think he’s wrong about rape culture. I’m not saying I don’t think he’s wrong about education (another survivor I know actually works in those groups with those people and says its effective and I trust him, although to be honest even giving offenders that much help makes my stomach turn).
But why is Larry Correia a target?
I don’t agree with a lot of what Larry has to say, but I’ll be honest and say I still like him. He reminds me of a couple of uncles I have and some friends I used to argue with at a couple construction jobs I had. He’s really loud and says some shit I don’t agree with but you also see him actually trying to help other writers and doing stuff for charity all the time.
So, I get that you guys have serious disagreements. I get that he’s called you names. You feel attacked and that makes sense that you’d want to focus on him.
BUT (and this is what’s bugging the shit out of me): The community just found out that Marion Zimmer Bradley was a child rapist. As in, she raped children. She put her hands on kids. I’ve just found out that the community knew she was a procurer and turned a blind eye to child-rape for decades on top of all of that. And no one talks about it.
No one in the community who usually talks about this stuff is talking about this.
I was five when I was victimized. That story hit me right in the guts. I figured I’d see everyone talking about it, trying to do some agony origami and figure out what to say about it that might bring some kind of useful awareness to the community. The silence has been deafening.
I get that Larry is loud and he says things that people don’t like. But maybe fandom needs a voice like that? Before you disagree, Larry’s website is the only place I’ve heard anything even WHISPERED about Samuel R. Delany. I can’t quite seem to figure out why that is.
Samuel R. Delany was just honored at the Nebulas and quoted in NK Jemisin’s speech (I agree with a lot of what she has to say, but I just don’t get how this isn’t at least being pointed out) and Samuel R. Delany outright without any kind of doubt or apology speaks up for NAMBLA.
NAMBLA is a group that advocates grown men raping young boys.
That’s so fucked up I don’t even have words for it.
Look at his Wikipedia page. If you can stand to do it, go to NAMBLA’s website. They quote him right goddamn there.
I’m not going to say that being a male survivor is harder than being a female survivor. But I will say that when you’re a male survivor not nearly many people are willing to talk about it. Giving a pass to a guy who supports NAMBLA is not okay. It’s not okay. Focusing on Larry Correia when that shit is not being talked about is not okay.
It is not okay.
I’m hoping you didn’t know. I’m hoping NK Jemisin and K Tempest Bradford and Mary Robinette Kowal don’t know. I saw everyone tweeting happily when he won his award. Because if you guys all know and aren’t saying anything about it and maybe even turning a blind eye because it’s really hard…
Well, I’d even kind of get that.
People talk a big game until that stuff is at their doorstep and then it becomes really easy to look away. We’re all human. No one’s invincible or infallible.
This is about the ugliest thing you can look at as a person.
But it’s still not okay.
I know none of you are under any obligation to condemn Samuel R Delany or Marion Zimmber Bradley. But when you’re going to start attacking people and you choose Larry Correia….
I just don’t get this.
J Brown
June 18, 2014 @ 5:22 pm
Oh, right there with you. There’s this great tendency, as seen in many of the comments to say that it’s easy to keep your head and defend against an acquaintance, but it’s just not. There is a completely different psychology there and there has to be ways of dealing with it on both sides of the equation. Folks say it’s easy to go…well he’s hurting me so despite the fact I love this guy I’ll just shoot him now… It’s not easy when it goes from a nameless attacker to a father, brother, uncle, boyfriend, etc.