What is Rape Culture?
Last night, I posted the following on Facebook and Tumblr:
It’s not that Ken Hoinsky ran a Kickstarter campaign to fund his book, “A Guide to Getting Awesome with Women,” filled with advice for aspiring rapists, like “Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant.”
It’s that 732 people backed his project on Kickstarter. That they donated more than eight times what Hoinsky was asking for.
Think about that the next time someone belittles the idea of rape culture.
This led to a side discussion about what “rape culture” meant. The suggestion came up that the phrase is a dog whistle that prevents honest discussion and implies all men are rapists and rape-enablers.
Okay, given the seven billion people in this world, I’m sure you can find one who believes all men are rapists, but that isn’t what that phrase has meant in any conversation I can remember having. (It is what I’ve seen some “Men’s Rights” advocates try to claim it means, because it gives them a way to derail discussion.)
I use “rape culture” to describe a society in which sexual violence is common, underreported, and underprosecuted, where rape victims are blamed or even prosecuted for trying to report the crime. A society that turns its back on rape survivors, or blames them for wearing the wrong clothes, drinking the wrong things, sending the wrong signals, putting themselves in the wrong situation, and so on. A society that treats women as objects and encourages men to be sexually aggressive, to see sex as a game to be won.
Does this mean all men believe women who are raped deserve it? That’s as silly as saying “The U.S. has a strong gun culture” = “All Americans are gun owners” or “Tumblr is full of fandom culture” = “All Tumblr posts are about fandom.”
Okay, fine, the argument goes. But that doesn’t prove this so-called “rape culture” actually exists. You worked as a rape counselor and spend a lot of time talking about this. Doesn’t that give you a distorted, overblown sense of the problem?
My sense has always been that my experience has helped open my eyes to a problem most people tend to ignore or minimize. That experience has included a fair amount of time reading research and articles about rape in our world.
Prevalence:
Back in 1995, the AMA described rape as the most underreported crime in America. It’s difficult to get exact numbers, but here’s some of the research and statistics discussing just how common rape really is.
- According to the U. S. Department of Justice, there were a total of 52,470 rapes in 2008. Women are victimized approximately four times as frequently as men. Even if you disregard issues of underreporting, that’s about 10,000 men and 40,000 women raped in a single year in this country.
- A National Institute of Justice study found that 18% of women — almost 1 in 5 — experienced a completed or attempted rape at some point in their lives.
- According to a 2007 study by the Medical University of South Carolina, roughly 1 in 20 of college women were raped in a single year. You can extrapolate that to a 1 in 5 chance of being raped over the course of a four-year college career.
- The same study notes that only about 12% of these rapes were reported to police.
- From the World Health Organization report on Violence Against Women: “In a random sample of 420 women in Toronto, Canada, 40% reported at least one episode of forced sexual intercourse since the age of 16.”
Men as Perpetrators:
It’s true that not all rapists are men, nor are all victims women. However, the vast majority of rapists are indeed male, and women are raped at a significantly greater rate than men. Looking specifically at men as rapists…
- A study from 1981, which is admittedly out of date, found that 35% of college men said they would commit rape under certain circumstances if they thought they could get away with it.
- A 1991 study found that 56% of high school girls and 76% of the boys “believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances.” (White, Jacqueline W. and John A. Humphrey)
- In this article from 2010, psychologist David Lisak found that 1 in 16 men admitted to committing rape, though few men labelled it as such.
- Another article by Lisak and Miller looked at the research and found that between 6% and 14.9% of men admitted to committing rape.
How Our Culture Facilitates Rape:
Once again, these are just a handful of examples that illustrate our culture’s attitudes toward rape and rape victims, and the impact of those attitudes.
- In a 2002 study of athletes, Sawyer found that “both male and female respondents, though predominately males, felt that about half of all reported rapes were invented by women. In other words, it was believed that women lied about being raped 50% of the time.” (Source)
- Most rapes are not reported to the police. (Source) Reasons for not reporting include:
- Shame/embarrassment
- Fear of reprisal
- Fear of police bias
- A review of 37 studies found that “men displayed a significantly higher endorsement of rape myth acceptance (RMA) than women. RMA was also strongly associated with hostile attitudes and behaviors toward women.” (Source)
- Men who have peer support for behaving in an emotionally violent manner toward women and for being physically and sexually violent toward women are 10 times more likely to commit sexual aggression toward women. (Source)
You also see these things, if you look, in our daily lives. In reporting that sympathizes with the rapists or emphasizes the victim’s looks, in rape prevention efforts that put the responsibility for stopping rape on women, in the way we conflate rape and sex, in jokes that minimize or belittle rape, in the way we expect rape to be a normal part of our fiction, in stories of police hostility to rape victims, in legal battles where the popular defense is victim-blaming, and so much more.
When I use the phrase rape culture, I’m not saying, “Hey buddy, did you know that you are personally an evil rapist and responsible for all the rape?” I’m saying we have a culture in which rape is widespread, and the reasons are many and multilayered.
When women talk about men as potential rapists, they’re not saying all men are animals who will commit rape at the slightest opportunity; they’re pointing out that because rape is so widespread, and because the perpetrators are so often “normal-looking” men, frequently friends and family, it creates an atmosphere of distrust and fear. Heck, doesn’t the fact that we focus prevention efforts almost exclusively on women essentially require women to treat all men as potential rapists?
And when men respond to these conversations by trying to reframe them as a personal attack or accusation, it takes the focus off of the problem of rape and derails the conversation.
Murphy Jacobs
June 20, 2013 @ 10:45 am
When I saw the message about that “book” and the petition last night, I was too angry to go to sleep (without a big glass of wine and about an hour playing a silly computer game).
I like to point out to those who deny the existence of rape culture by changing up the wording. If the “book” had been about sexually assaulting other men or children (like in this case http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/19/us/cfp-us-race-against-time/index.htm) would there be any question about it?
I also ask others if they can imagine themselves in some situation where they could be a victim of sexual assault. If they cannot, I ask them what makes them immune, and then we discuss the assumptions under that imagined immunity. No one is immune from sexual assault (and few, realistically, are totally incapable of committing an assault (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890674)
So to imagine in some way that this book is a joke, is just some idiotic thing, is basically harmless, or that it just isn’t a big deal is to close one’s eyes.
Thank you, Mr. Hines, for speaking out. I’m still so angry I could vomit.
Michele Ray
June 20, 2013 @ 10:57 am
Thank you for putting this so succinctly and eloquently. I was at a complete loss last night at the attempts to derail – the “side discussion” you mentioned – my hope is that the individual in question will look back and see that this is, indeed, what they were doing, and why it is NOT helpful. As a woman living in our rape culture, this attitude from so-called “allies” requiring women to toe the line and cater to their egos and preferences in even the language we use, feels very much to me like emotional violence, and those men as “not really my ally”, but someone who wishes only to be perceived as such, without having to actually be or understand it.
Or, perhaps…. and this is just ME… if, for example, a person had “unwittingly” committed date rape or marital rape in the past, supported by peers, and truly didn’t understand at the time that THAT is what they were doing… a person is THAT situation, might very well find themselves VERY uncomfortable to “discover” much later, that they had raped someone. If that were ME, and I were unwilling to admit it, well, *I* might very well use the exact same tactics in order to continue to feel okay about myself.
Now, in a case like that, *I* personally would think the thing to do would be own up to it, apologize to my victim, do my utmost to make amends, including accepting whatever punishment was warranted. Yes, perhaps I would lose friends. Perhaps I’d be in jail (unlikely, sadly). But I’d know I’d done what was RIGHT, finally.
Or, you know, perhaps I could at the very least, join the discussion honestly and try to be a TRUE ALLY.
But, again, that’s just ME.
IT
June 20, 2013 @ 11:14 am
That (and by that, I mean the book) makes me ill.
I’m glad you understand. I’m glad you can explain it in a clear manner to others, though I fear many of those who need to pay attention the most won’t listen.
Angela Green
June 20, 2013 @ 11:18 am
While it is a move in the right direction that the issues of rape and sexual abuse are being more openly addressed, I do fear that there is too much sensationalism at the moment. Speaking from the point of view of what is happening in Britain, with all the publicity focused on the perpetrators, who receive sentences such as 15 months for years of abuse inflicted on numerous young girls, in fact children. As a survivor of sexual abuse in childhood and rape I do not really see or feel anything changing. I am very overwhelmed by all the media goings on which have quite frankly dredged up a lot of anxiety.
The real issues are still not being addressed, people, women, men or children still can’t turn around and openly say, “I have been through it” without a deadly silence following. Perpetrators are still not being dealt with severely enough and justice certainly is not being done. Women and men contribute to “rape culture” because people can’t talk about it, no one wants to know, it’s too painful so they need to create justifications to protect themselves from the truth. It is wrong, it is evil and destroys a person for the rest of their lives. You can learn to deal with it but it will never leave you, so why should those who rape be allowed to walk away after a few months or a couple of years!
Jessica Strider
June 20, 2013 @ 11:36 am
Not sure if you’ve seen this TED talk about Violence & Silence by Jackson Katz, but it’s fantastic and deals with a lot of issues you bring up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvSfeCRxe8 . He mentions why focusing on the victim is wrong (since so many people can’t see why this is wrong), why men need to take a stand against other men who belittle women and issues of violence (since women aren’t the only victims). Ultimately, he says we need to change male culture to make violence – of all kinds – something men are no longer congratulated for, but told is wrong.
Clay Dowling
June 20, 2013 @ 12:07 pm
An excellent summation of the meaning behind the phrase as you’re using it, Jim. Also, I hope, what most people mean when they use the “Rape Culture,” because it’s a very real problem.
I wish I had good suggestions to deal with under-reporting and the difficulties of prosecution. The best I can come up with is to raise your daughters to have a spine of steel, because that’s what it takes to get justice in the current system. That does not seem like a satisfactory solution to me.
lkeke35
June 20, 2013 @ 12:07 pm
It’s interesting to me how people make those exact same arguments and derailments for any -ism they don’t want to deal with in an honest manner. The most effective derailment is the “my feelings were hurt argument”, which include all of the arguments used above along with the “tone argument”
And particularly effective is the “calling the speaker the name of what they’e calling out”. For example, pointing out any -ism automatically gets you called it because you keep bringing it up and/or dwelling on it.
There’s an excellent website called: How to Derail an Argument.
It points out all of the most popular ways of doing that and it’s hilarious and informative.
Clay Dowling
June 20, 2013 @ 12:15 pm
I would be careful about setting up a society where all violence is wrong. In a world dealing with imperfect people, there will always be some who don’t get the message, and reasoned discourse isn’t going to carry the day against them. Violence in defense of others, particularly those who can’t defend themselves, seems like it can be a good thing. While I don’t enjoy violence, I would feel no compunction about tossing somebody out of a party if he was harassing a woman. Or about using physical force if just asking them to leave wasn’t sufficient.
Sadly, this isn’t a hypothetical. I’ve hosted parties at fandom events, and had to toss people for that very reason.
Andrea Harris
June 20, 2013 @ 12:23 pm
It’s also part of the way we see sexual relations. Not just as normally cis-sexual and heterosexual, but as a hunter/prey relationship, with the male as the hunter and the female as the prey. The ur-picture is of the male, dominant and action-taking, running up out of the Beyond and grabbing up the female, who is submissive and passive, and carrying her off. In our patriarchal culture, women are “taken” from their fathers (the “giving the bride away” part of the marriage ceremony), and it’s implied that the “taking” need not be voluntary if the male “husband” is forceful enough. This violent, rapist imagery is at the base of the narrative of male-female romantic relationships, at least here in the US, which is why, in 2013, women are still looked askance at if they take the initiative in the dating game. We’re supposed to sit there, in the grass, waiting for our rapist-husbands to pick us up and carry us off. Men are raised, by the culture if not their parents directly, to feel themselves entitled to a woman, to all women (telling strange women to “smile!” and grousing about how unfair it is that Muslim women “have to” cover themselves, etc., is part of this entitlement), and women are taught that they belong to all men, that their lives are subordinate to men’s, that they need to cater to men, and so on. Still, now, in 2013. We have a rapist culture that rewards men for having a rapist mentality — they’re told to be dominant and strong and not be “weak like a woman” or “cry like a girl” and that girl things are icky (unless a large number of men, unconsciously and unsuccessfully struggling against this narrative, adopt something formerly the province of girls — like My Little Pony; then it becomes “cool” and even “manly” — so the narrative wins anyway).
Tl;dr, the forces we’re fighting against are much stronger and more subtle than the occasional asshole who just can’t keep quiet anymore about his assholery. It’s the entire culture, even the nice “fun” stuff like romantic comedies where the guy crashes into some girl’s life and won’t go away until he’s made a mess of her life and she realizes she is in love with him for it.
Susan
June 20, 2013 @ 12:43 pm
Clay, that’s still putting the responsibility back on the women. We don’t need women to have spines of steel for dealing with rape in particular (though it’s nice for life in general). We need men (primarily) to STOP RAPING PEOPLE and both men and women to stop victim-blaming and suspecting victims of lying.
Advising women to have stronger spines so they can cope with being mistreated by the justice system and shamed by society is akin to telling them the way to deal with rape is to relax and enjoy it. How about we work on changing the perpetrators, not the victims?
Maureen O'Danu
June 20, 2013 @ 1:07 pm
Thank you for this, Jim. I’ve been taking part in these discussions for years, but this is the first time I’ve seen it 1) brought up by a man and 2) supported by men so openly and naturally. It’s really nice to see. I’ve been following your blog for awhile now and realize its no coincidence — you really are a feminist ally who ‘gets it’. It is appreciated.
Annalee
June 20, 2013 @ 1:17 pm
This. If we could end rape culture by raising our daughters to have steel spines or not get raped or whatever, we’d have ended rape culture centuries ago.
The problem is that we need to get out of the ‘mothers tell your daughters’ mindset, and into the ‘fathers tell your sons’ one. Men are the ones with commit privileges to the social code, here, so they’re the ones who need to implement the patches.
Clay Dowling
June 20, 2013 @ 1:29 pm
Susan, I think you missed the last sentence of what I wrote. Steel spines is what they need now. “Need” is not the desired end state. I don’t want to get into that further here, because I’ve derailed enough suff lately, and I don’t want to distract from what Jim said. I’ll take it over to my own blog in a day or two, and if you want to join in there please feel free.
Elizabeth
June 20, 2013 @ 1:30 pm
This is a fantastic metaphor, Annalee, thank you.
lga
June 20, 2013 @ 1:47 pm
At least progress is being made in terms of public awareness – fewer things are taken for granted as “okay.” Case in point: A few weeks ago I watched “Sixteen Candles,” which I’ve seen at least half a dozen times since it was released in 1984. This time, though, when Jake sets up his drunken cheerleader girlfriend for what was clearly (by today’s standards) not a properly-consented-to sexual encounter with the “geek,” my reaction wasn’t amusement, but rather, “ACK.” And then in the sober light of day she reassures him that she’d had a good time, reinforcing the message that it’s fine to “seduce” women so intoxicated that they can’t stand up. Wrong. So wrong. Surely I’m not the only person who sees the movie differently now, and progress in attitudes is absolutely vital for social change.
Susan
June 20, 2013 @ 2:02 pm
Clay, you’re still missing the point, and now you’re mansplaining besides.
I saw your last sentence. It doesn’t mitigate the fact that for all of this, the best you can come up with (the only thing you came up with, in fact) is to work on the victims, not the perpetrators or the culture at large. More about what women ought to do or be. Nothing about men.
That is exactly the rape culture that Jim is talking about and that you still seem to be failing to understand. Do you really think women don’t know what we have to do to deal with shit like this? Do you really think we need you to tell us to buck up? Do you somehow think we had missed this obvious get-tough method of dealing without a helpful guy like you to explain it? Do you think maybe we haven’t already heard this kind of thing a thousand times?
You are being part of the problem here, not part of the solution. Maybe you want to take a good long look at yourself before writing that blog post, because if it goes on in this vein, you’re going to turn yourself into Exhibit A of failure to grok the concept.
Damiana
June 20, 2013 @ 2:39 pm
Clay, a couple of points.
First of all, what Jim described is a very good description of what ALL of us have been talking about when we use the term “rape culture”. It’s what we’ve meant *all along*. It might be worthwhile for you to think about why your immediate (and strong) reaction was to assume that he/we meant that YOU PERSONALLY are a rapist, particularly since women and other feminists have been explaining–for years now–what the term refers to.
Second, I don’t think anyone missed your last sentence. The point is that people generally (including you specifically) can’t seem to get out of the mindset that rape is a woman’s responsibility. That it’s her job to prevent it, and it’s her job to deal with it when it somehow magically happens anyway.
What is needed is not more feminine spines of steel–we’ve got that covered, believe me.
What’s needed is for men to get *themselves* into the mindset that ONLY “yes” = consent. That they need to teach their sons to expect that. That they need to teach their friends that, and talk about how great an enthusiastic “yes” is. That if they want to know how to hook up with a woman, they should *ask women what they want*, and then do that. (Radical concept, I know!) That, when they have decisions to make in their everyday lives, they make a point of *thinking* about what they’re doing and saying. That they need to monitor their OWN language, and take out the words and attitudes that are derogatory toward women. (Don’t talk about “bitches” and “c*nts” and “pussies”. Don’t expect that the woman in the suit is there to get you coffee, unless you hired her for exactly that purpose. Don’t call a woman you barely know “honey” or “baby” or “sweetheart”. Don’t expect a woman you don’t know–or even one you do know–to be comfortable with the derogatory joke you told while standing 2 feet away from her. Yes, you have freedom of speech, and that includes dealing with the repercussions of what you say. This is one of them, and it’s YOUR issue, not HERS.)
In other words, instead of thinking about what WOMEN can do about rape and rape culture, start thinking about what YOU can do about it. There’s actually quite a bit–ESPECIALLY for a guy who isn’t and never would be a rapist.
Cat
June 20, 2013 @ 2:55 pm
As one of the “statistics” I must commend this article. I think that it is REQUIRED reading for those who dismiss sexual assault, who concentrate on what the assaulted person was wearing, drinking, doing, where they were walking et. al. instead of concentrating on the PERPETRATOR. It is REQUIRED reading for those who derail conversations about the culture Western Society has (since it’s not just an American thing) where people bring up “but what about ‘false rape’ and women who claim it because they regret what they did?”
As someone who has been THROUGH a rape exam, let me tell you that is the MOST demeaning and dehumanizing thing you can imagine. You are exposed physically under bright lights so your body can be inspected have hairs combed and plucked from EVERYWHERE THERE IS HAIR, have blood taken so that you can be tested for STD’s, have PICTURES taken of your exposed body with POLICE observing the entire examination and combing/plucking. You have to relive the entire assault as you state MORE THAN ONCE what happened and under what circumstances it happened. You get comments FROM THE POLICE and questions FROM THE POLICE about “why did you put yourself in THAT SITUATION” which transfers the blame from the perpetrator to YOU – even if that is not what the police intended. Then after you are ALLOWED to put on clothing that is NOT YOURS (since yours may contain trace evidence and must be seized as evidence) you are handed a prescription for prophylactic antibiotics and advised to call later to get your case number (which is what you have now been reduced to – just a case number).
Try to imagine all of that happening to YOU and then tell me that all or most women LIE about being raped because they have “regrets” (some DO, but most of those women balk at going through the entire exam because it dehumanizes you so much and believe it or not the police take note of that).
Lizosaurus Rex
June 20, 2013 @ 2:59 pm
I was recently chatting with a friend of mine who attends many of the same Renaissance Faires as I do. He’s going through what could be termed his “wild youth days” and he often talks about taking substances or drinking till he blacks out. And he doesn’t care if photos get taken, because he was having a good time.
For a long time I was angry with that statement, and I couldn’t figure out why. That is until it struck me. The boy can literally drink until he blacks out and the most he has to worry about are embarrassing pictures. That we live in a world where he can lose an entire night and not have to be afraid of what might happen to him made me furious. I know that if I am not constantly checking my surroundings, the people near me, possible exit lines, what I’m wearing and if I smile too much at people, then when I am inevitably assualted it will be my fault. And that when I stone sober. I will never be as safe as him. And worse, he has no idea that we inhabit two wildly different worlds. Even though we attend the same cons/faires/events. I must exercise “Constant Vigilance” and he can blithely skip through life enjoying it to the hilt.
That is rape culture.
Dawn Newman
June 20, 2013 @ 3:30 pm
Violence can still be considered wrong, with the understanding that it may sometimes be necessary to correct or avoid a greater wrong. As long as it is the last option rather than the first, reluctantly accepted when unavoidable rather than glorified, you will still be able to defend others.
W
June 20, 2013 @ 3:40 pm
“and few, realistically, are totally incapable of committing an assault”
I have to take exception at this comment, this is exactly the kind of statement that puts so many men immediately on the defensive when the topic of rape culture is discussed. The “all men are potential rapists” sentiment inherent in this kind of comment immediately closes down one’s desire to discuss the matter in a serious and thoughtful way. It is also why, when the topic of rape or rape culture comes up, many men feel like the first thing they have to do is ensure everyone knows they are one of the “good guys”; which in turn can frustrate and derail conversations. No one wants to hear “under the right situations you would resort to rape” anymore than you want to hear “under the right situations you would resort to pedophilia” … not only is it inflammatory, it is inaccurate. The above link and it’s relevant discussion would have been just as appropriate without the addition of the attached comment.
If people want to have an honest and successful dialog about this subject, they cannot start out the conversation by immediately labeling someone as the bad guy. (or insinuating they are beginning the discussion from a position where they must first prove their innocence)
Clay Dowling
June 20, 2013 @ 3:42 pm
Cat, thank you for bringing that up. I thought that was a surprising omission in Jim’s list of reasons for under reporting. I’ve sat on a jury for a sexual assault case, and what the victim is required to go through in the courtroom to get justice seemed pretty horrific. Compared to what you’re describing, that seems like a walk in the park.
Jim C. Hines
June 20, 2013 @ 3:44 pm
It’s a valid and powerful reason, but it wasn’t a part of the study I was linking to there.
Cat
June 20, 2013 @ 4:29 pm
I didn’t even mention the fact that this is done after the incredible violation of having your body invaded or used by another person against your will. It compounds the feeling of being violated to a degree that I simply can NOT put into words. In fact, the experience is so traumatic than when my ex husband raped me while we were married I didn’t report it and didn’t seek medical attention. I just didn’t want to have to go through all of that all over again. After the rape exam, days after, I declined to prosecute because I didn’t want to have to relive that horror in a court in front of other people. I just couldn’t do it – the whole situation was demeaning and demoralizing enough. I couldn’t face a defense attorney who would assassinate my character thus adding to the violation.
Thankfully, I did seek therapy after the first sexual assault and used what I learned during therapy to heal after my then-hubby assaulted me and I finally managed to escape the marriage. I took back control. It took a while, but I took back control and have healed (for the most part – you can NEVER heal fully from the violation of your body, violation of your trust, and violation of your spirit/soul that acquaintance/date or spousal rape brings). This is a HUGE reason that date/spousal/acquaintance rape is under-reported and under-prosecuted.
Jessi
June 20, 2013 @ 4:46 pm
I read that line differently. Capability and willingess/intent are not the same thing.
Yes, anytime the idea of women having to treat all men as potential rapists comes up in conversation, many men immediately get defensive, because they misinterpret “treat all men as potential rapists” as meaning “all men are rapists”. They fail to see that what the statement really means is that we have no way of predicting which men may or may not attempt to rape us. We can only determine if they would be *capable* of doing so (i.e. Could he physically overpower me? Could he corner me; do I have an escape route if he approached me right now? etc.)
To say very few are “incapable” of committing sexual assault is not to say all but a few *would*, just that all but a few *could*.
Sally
June 20, 2013 @ 5:21 pm
Here’s a woman who stood up against this in a funny way:
http://www.happyplace.com/24408/woman-forward-scummy-guys-dick-pic-to-his-mother
(SFW, some mildly-naughty words)
Kathryn (@Loerwyn)
June 20, 2013 @ 5:44 pm
Just don’t read the comments. There’s a couple of good ones, but on the whole they’re terrible – on BOTH sides of the debate.
Sally
June 20, 2013 @ 6:06 pm
I think “Just don’t read the comments” is good advice for most of the internet. Here excepted, of course.
Lewis F. Miranda
June 20, 2013 @ 6:22 pm
I have two comments.
In both, thank you Jim C. Hines, for the article. you rock.
First, where is the rapist’s family and friends? why did they let this happen?
The school guys from months back with the videos and tweeter traffic. what happened?
what makes them think that girl deserves be soiled like that?
Lewis F. Miranda
June 20, 2013 @ 6:24 pm
Jim C. Hines, Kudos for this article.
I have an honest aversion against the concept of rape. let’s get that straight and without question.
But guys, look at something. 737 idiots supported the rape-supporting-book indicated in the article. Assuming 5,000,000 people nationwide saw this , 3 in 10,000 agreed with it. say, 10-20 people in a football stadium. Not an unreal idea. (i live in LA County, 10 million people), and can think with a few hundred supporting it, insane as they are)
Also, BDSM literature and imagery are intense to many. Art for many, freedom to express self, whatever. And exposure to this can fire up a rapist’s drive.
The key is, you see, that there is this demarcation line of forced versus consensual. one that keeps being ignored in many discussions.
Enforced versus Agreed with.
**** NOT Accepted. Fear can make one accept things… especially fear for one’s life or that of someone we care for. A fav torture weapon in warfare.****
What i say is that Rape argument is not about the sex alone, but about that privation of choice. and the outcome’s degradation.
And that it is driven by current societal environment.
It has ALWAYS Been driven by the environment.
What changed is the moral education of the individual.
Years back, when someone from a part of society said something is bad, little ones listened. because adults were concerned of what that office/group/uniform said.
THE SOCIETY was rigged to educate restraint in the individual. (bad thing in other areas, but not in this one, my friend.)
BUT TODAY, the media is constantly blasting youth with “rebel!” and is a liar, bad, criminal. The young ones are hearing this marketing storm on their own, and WITHOUT the filter of EDUCATION, MATURITY and EXPERIENCE.
**** Not the media, but marketers who pay for advertisement. Why they do this? BECAUSE IT SELLS! And kids buy and swallow and promote the sing-song because (for example) they SEE that those who say “dont lie”, lie to each other. Should they believe a dishonest person? ****
And what you get is the same as a war veteran telling actual factual honest uncolored stories of warfare, of kill before being killed. of seeing the “enemy” as a thing that can be gutted, tortured, maimed, crippled, and left to die…
i get it that some in those professions (church, police, military, medicine, school, services, whatever) are bad. but the majority are bloody good and CARE.
Parallel argument with guns (just an example. pls dont turn this around). Decent people follow the law. Criminals violate the law.
Guns become outlawed. good people will not have them. Criminals will have them. Who eats who? who takes control?
So back to RAPE CULTURE.
it is enabled because parents relegate moral education to entities made non-existent by popular demand.
and because disrespect for others is driven by music, visual imagery and advertisement.
I’m not a puritan or prude. I see the problem and how to solve it.
I ask you to look around. go outside and look at the society environment. go to a beach. a park. a disco. not magazines. not movies. go eyeball the place. WHAT is being promoted?
Seeing that, what can you tell a young one that would prevent him from committing rape? (threats dont work) (lock him up? with rapists waiting for him? really?)
THAT, i see as the answer.
Personal intervention and education of the youth, so they grow up inoculated against the influence that destroys society. Belief in “everybody says” and disregard of basic morals. (dont steal, respect others, etc)
Lewis F. Miranda
June 20, 2013 @ 6:35 pm
I agree with you.
and part of the problem is that the social structure that in the past would have protected you from attack, others around, has been turned into a mass of on-lookers without responsibility for the outcome.
why?
“maybe they are together” and the risk of it being a setup (which is actively promoted as a real possibility)
I’m old school. I watch over people, break fights and call the police.
but see many who just stand around and watch…
Lewis F. Miranda
June 20, 2013 @ 6:41 pm
Clay,
The community around the rapist, the family, the friends…
THEY NEED A SPINE OF STEEL to not let this happen. or handle if it does. THEY need to tell the young one that it is NOT COOL to think of people as things. Not applaud, tolerate or allow the bullying or the mentality that makes it okay.
The Rape victim is that. Victim. And Rape is the non-agreed, non-consensual action.
And now, this week in rape culture–and speaking out against it | angelahighland.com
June 20, 2013 @ 6:49 pm
[…] want to leave you with that rancid taste in your mouths, Internets, so here, have another link: Jim Hines laying out exactly what rape culture is in his own response to this mess. To which I’ll add: yes, exactly what he […]
Zeborah
June 20, 2013 @ 7:03 pm
Clay, steel spines is not what women need now. Because steel spines don’t work any more than guarding your drink or wearing ‘modest’ clothes or walking in a well-lit area or staying home or learning self-defence or taking a dog, gun, burly man, or nuclear missile with you, or any other of those “She should have”s that our rape culture is soaking in.
It’s not only that we shouldn’t have to, though that’s true enough.
It’s that they don’t even work.
You suggest we have to “raise your daughters to have a spine of steel, because that’s what it takes to get justice in the current system” – seriously? If a steel spine got women justice, there’d be a hell of a lot more rapists in prison than there are now.
What gets you justice in the current system, I suspect, is what got me out of the rape some guy attempted on me: pure, sheer, blind luck. And there’s just not enough of that to go around.
Laura Resnick
June 20, 2013 @ 7:17 pm
Reading a number of the anecdotes here, I wanted to share this: A few months ago, I bought a house and moved into this city neighborhood where my street is still mostly empty at night (the other houses around here were, like mine, abandoned and derelict before being rehabbed, and I was the first purchaser is this revitalization program). And I’ve noticed a really interesting custom in this neighborhood. In most instances where I’m out on the street after dark for some reason (unloading groceries from my car, for example), if a lone man is walking down the street here and sees me… he usually CROSSES the street before getting to me, to walk on the other side.
It’s not 100% consistent, but it happens often enough that it seems to be a common custom around here. I’ve mentioned it to a number of women friends, who immediately Get It. It’s a considerate custom, an appreciated courtesy. When I’m outside a lone in the dark, it’s a stranger’s way of letting me know that he is now threat at all to me–rather than me regularly wondering if there’s a problem approaching me as a strange man approaches me on my empty street in the dark.
W
June 20, 2013 @ 7:51 pm
I’ll give you “physically capable”, though that’s not how I read it, it’s fair to say.
And I *do* get the difference – because I’ve had to have it explained to me a few times, though I appreciate you doing so again without being mean, that isn’t always the case – my concern is that when one comes into the conversation with a statement like that it shuts down discussion. Women can and do talk to one another about the subject quite extensively and they can draw already informed men into those conversations as well, but it’s the kind of approach that alienates anyone dipping their toes in the pool to see what it’s all about.
Now, if one doesn’t intend to let these people into the discussion that isn’t a big deal, but I hate to see communication hobbled before it can begin. (and I’ve seen it many times, as I’m sure you have) I guess maybe it’s just a wording issue? I can see the reasoning that “we *have to* think this way” has to get across to men … I’m just worried because I know alot of men shut down and stop listening at that point.
This has always been my one sticking point concerning opening dialog about this issue on the internet; it’s The One Thing I think most men get hung up by.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 8:17 pm
A) Backing the rapist up, mostly. That’s rape culture, too. They believe that their friend/son/brother/whatever can’t possibly have done this thing, so they just deny it, and support the rapist over his victim.
B) No one is goddamn SOILED. Don’t use that kind of language. It’s part of a really damaging narrative about the effects of rape on victims. They’re not dirty (a word used in our culture for women who have a lot of sex on purpose, e.g. “dirty girl,” “dirty slut,” “dirty whore”), they’ve been attacked.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 8:21 pm
There are so many things wrong with this comment, I don’t even know where to start. Suffice to say, it is full of more rape culture and spreading the blame around to anybody BUT the rapists. Also minimizing the number of people out there who commit or support rape. Where’s that study of college men that should that, what, one in twenty of them would admit that they had raped, as long as that word was never used?
Mike
June 20, 2013 @ 8:23 pm
I don’t want a cookie for what I’m about to say (I’m wincing but I want to make a point). So please, this is not about “look at me” so please bear with me.
When I get into elevators (I do a lot at work) I move the side and INFRONT of women, if they’re on with me. And tend to do everything to present “I’m small and harmless and SO not looking at you”. If I’m in a corridor at work at night and a woman is ahead of me I try to pass/pull ahead or I make a LOT of noise.
(This would be where I’d ask for a cookie, “see how great I am” if this was about me)
I talk to the young men here at work all the time and they look at me blankly, blinking, every time I bring this up. How much I loathe that the world we live in necessitates this. And how NECESSARY it is. Because… duh. It is.
And each time they are very very slow to even understanding the conversation, let alone GETTING it (if you know what I mean). The women? Right there. Totally get it.
I… wish it didn’t bug me so much that these sweet, wonderful men have no idea. They’d never do anything, but… they have no idea in the least what they sometimes look like to other people. And THAT is when they’re the good guys.
Jessi
June 20, 2013 @ 8:35 pm
That it is The One Thing that most men get hung up by in these discussions is exactly why we can’t omit it from the conversation. I’d argue that it isn’t the topic that derails the conversation, it is the person who shifts the focus onto himself that derails the conversation.
Wording is tricky. It always is. Even if you use all of the “right” words, there will always be people who project an unintended meaning onto them. That said, it’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion about rape culture if one has to tip-toe around some of the most blatant symptoms of it.
Lucy
June 20, 2013 @ 8:36 pm
Responding to the title of Jim’s post: what is rape culture?–
It’s me, as a woman, having to assume, no matter what and no matter where I am, that somebody–a predator–views me as a prey animal, and may act on that, given the chance.
Now, I’ve known some excellent men. Men I could trust with body, life and soul. There are a lot of them out there.
But gentlemen, until I know you and know you much better than you imagine, I have no choice but to assume you are a risk to me, given the chance. Because somebody is, and if I don’t watch and be wary, I might not know who he is until it’s too late. Because this is a culture of silence, winks, nods, and regrets behind closed doors.
That’s rape culture.
Lucy
June 20, 2013 @ 8:37 pm
No cookies. Just thank you for caring.
W
June 20, 2013 @ 9:09 pm
Oh no, I absolutely agree, it needs to be discussed I just rarely see it brought up in a way that doesn’t make men feel attacked in the process.
Probably what we need is more high profile men coming out and explaining it to men so they won’t feel personally accused. A lot of high profile people coming out in support of same sex relationships, so maybe there’s hope they’ll swing around to that topic as well. (especially if people suggest it … )
Zeborah
June 20, 2013 @ 9:16 pm
Oh, God forbid men should feel attacked in a discussion about women, um, being attacked.
Damiana
June 20, 2013 @ 10:37 pm
Yeah, that whole “soiled” thing is a big part of the problem. It assumes that a woman is only valuable if she hasn’t had sex, and it leads to horrific things like women being expected to commit suicide if they’ve been silly enough to get themselves raped, because it damages their family’s honor, and like rape being deliberately used as a genocidal tactic. (This is happening in Africa, BTW, and has been for years.)
The only person “soiled” by rape is the rapist.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 11:07 pm
How about men shut the fuck up and listen, and try to understand what’s actually being said, instead of blowing up right away? Their actions are their responsibility, not ours. That’s the point.
Damiana
June 20, 2013 @ 11:12 pm
Depending on which study you look at, it goes as high as 42%. I suspect that realistically it’s probably more like half that, or maybe a third… but that’s still 1 in every 5 or 6 or 7 guys.
Which is a LOT.
W
June 20, 2013 @ 11:36 pm
And it’s exactly that attitude of not listening to the problems men are having understanding and finding a way breach that void that’s stalling the entire dialog. If women want to sit around all day and talk to each other about sexual assault they are welcome to do so, alienate the men, insult them, push them away because they don’t get it; it’s your playing field. But you can’t refuse to try and find a solution and then in the next breath bitch because men don’t get it.
W
June 20, 2013 @ 11:40 pm
And I might additionally point out, that when I offered a thought toward a solution – getting some high profile men to address the issue in ways men can better understand – I was immediately attacked. Some people are more comfortable pointing fingers than looking for a way to fix problems.
Damiana
June 20, 2013 @ 11:53 pm
Look, W…
1) People are responsible for their own feelings. Any time someone says “you made me feel…” they are not owning their own shit. If a guy feels attacked when people around him are talking about rape culture and what it consists of, particularly if they haven’t mentioned his name, then maybe he needs to take a good look at why his hindbrain thinks they’re talking about him.
2) Telling someone that you’d be much more likely to listen to them if only they were nicer about what they were saying is called using “the Tone Argument”. It’s a standard tactic for getting women and other non-powerful groups to shut up about being harassed and attacked. Instead of telling someone else how to talk about having been harassed or attacked, try to focus on the content of what they are saying and how THEY are feeling and checking to see if you’re understanding it correctly, and not on your own internal reaction. What they’re saying is about THEM, not YOU. And honestly? When (for instance) a woman is talking about how the experience of being raped has affected how she views the world, the way you feel about that is really pretty immaterial… especially if you’re feeling attacked by that, and want everyone to be talking about *your feelings* instead of *her*.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 11:55 pm
I’ve tried it a million times: There is no language nice enough to say “You’re wrong” when being told they’re wrong is what they’re wailing over. You’re wrong. And you’re defending rape culture by insisting that the feelings of men must be catered to in this.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 11:58 pm
Except that no one attacked the statement that men should speak up. Indeed, we want men to speak out against rape. We attacked the false and dangerous idea that women must coddle men when talking about rape. Men are adults, definitionally, and are responsible for themselves and their own emotions, and they need to act like adults and own that responsibility instead of whining that we aren’t nice enough to them.
YOU need to take some responsibility and stop whining that we aren’t being nice enough to YOU. And you need to stop outright lying about what’s being said. We can read the conversation, you know. It’s all right there.
MadGastronomer
June 20, 2013 @ 11:59 pm
Thank you.
Yeah, helluva lot more than twenty guys out of a football stadium full.
Damiana
June 21, 2013 @ 12:00 am
You weren’t attacked, and certainly not for your suggestion. You were told you were wrong–which, believe me, is NOT the same thing as being attacked–because you used the Tone Argument.
W
June 21, 2013 @ 12:01 am
Except the topic on the board isn’t rape, it’s *rape culture* and there’s a difference. There are plenty of men who understand what rape is, but rape culture is something you don’t learn about in school, it’s not something you hear about on tv, it isn’t even something you read about much in magazines. So when a man learns about rape culture it is almost always from women discussing the subject … so the “how” of that discussion becomes important. There are a lot of men who don’t believe in rape culture, and a lot more who believe that the term is created by angry feminists so they can be angry feminists. So when you approach a discussion on the matter in a “tone” that is going to chase away your audience, all you do is support their preconceptions and do nothing to help spread understanding or your cause.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 12:06 am
Again: There is no tone nice enough to get through to people who don’t want to hear the actual message. These men — including you — don’t want to hear that they might have to change anything they think or do. That’s what they have a problem with, not the words we use to say it.
You are wrong. Again and again you are wrong. And you are derailing. And you are defending rape culture, because one of the tenets of rape culture is that women are responsible for men’s feelings.
W
June 21, 2013 @ 12:07 am
There seems to be a misunderstanding in this discussion – somehow it went from talking about rape culture, to talking about rape. I have been, the entire time, discussing the former and the ways in which that discussion can be had.
The sad irony here is I’m not one of these men I’m talking about, what I am is an advocate for discussion whom has witnessed the obstacles those discussions are running up against. You can say, “it isn’t fair” all you like; “fair” and achieving your goals aren’t always compatible.
W
June 21, 2013 @ 12:09 am
“You weren’t attacked”
So statements like: “Oh God forbid!” and “shut the fuck up!” don’t qualify? Well then I am mistaken.
London
June 21, 2013 @ 12:11 am
“Rape culture” strikes me as a counter-productive term. It means something within this forum and the broader anti-rape culture (for lack of a better term). But, to people outside of the community, “rape culture” doesn’t carry the connotations and data you assign to it. It sounds like an attack on their culture. Worse, for the average person who doesn’t think of themselves as condoning, excusing, or enabling rape, it sounds like a personal insult. For the sake of changing minds, it doesn’t matter if that’s not what you intend.
I also wonder if “culture” is a useful term within this community. Culture implies something monolithic that permeates through out all strata of society. I won’t claim to have your expertise, Jim, but I’m skeptical that rape is a problem with a few, common roots. If different rapists, harassers, and enablers have different motivations and understandings, addressing them as a whole is unlikely to be effective.
“Rape culture” may be a powerful focus for anger among victims and advocates, but not an effective tool to change behavior. The thing I most enjoy and respect about your writing, Jim, is your work to educate people who aren’t part of the choir. I hope you’ll focus on effective communication to people who haven’t bought in.
Damiana
June 21, 2013 @ 12:12 am
W, if a guy hears someone say the phrase “rape culture” and realizes he has no idea what they’re talking about… perhaps he should ASK? And then LISTEN?
And perhaps he should think about assuming that if a woman sounds angry about something, then maybe *she has a reason and a right to be angry*. Perhaps, if he thinks she’s specifically angry *at him* he should ask WHY. And if she is, then he should listen to what she says about why, and assume that, being a rational human being, her anger is legitimate and there’s something he should maybe look at fixing. And if she isn’t, then perhaps he should just, you know, *let her be angry* instead of trying to shut it down. And maybe listen to her anger, and if he cares about her, maybe ask if there’s anything HE can do to help fix the problem.
Or he could decide it’s all about him and his comfort, and that he shouldn’t have to deal with interacting with someone who is angry about having been harassed or assaulted, because that’s just too hard, so THEY should change.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 12:25 am
You cannot discuss rape culture without discussing rape. But then, we are discussing rape culture as well, and women in general still know more about rape culture than men do, being the ones most victimized by it. And when you demand that women do nothing to upset men, when you demand that women do nothing to offend men, that we only talk about rape culture in the way that you approve of, you are defending rape culture. You are behaving in exactly the ways we are talking about them behaving, and it has exactly the same effect: to maintain rape culture. And that really does make you one of those men, no matter what you think about it.
Damiana
June 21, 2013 @ 12:27 am
I’m not Jim, and I certainly don’t want to suggest that I speak for him. Also, I hope he weighs in here.
That being said, “culture” is a very precise and appropriate description, for EXACTLY the reason you suggest: it IS something monolithic that permeates through out all strata of society.
Our culture is so very saturated in it that, for most people, it is invisible. And yes, the phrase “rape culture” IS an attack on mainstream culture, because mainstream culture DOES support, condone, excuse, and enable rape.
Think about the Steubenville case:
–Two near-adults raped an unconscious girl in front of witnesses
–None of those witnesses did anything to try to stop them
–Some of them recorded the rape and broadcast it
–Afterward the police refused to even investigate, despite the massive amount of evidence of guilt
–The boys’ coaches actively worked to cover up their crime rather than reporting it
–The entire TOWN blamed the girl for her own rape
–It wasn’t investigated until an outside hacker pulled together all the evidence, and outside pressure forced the issue
–The boys–both of whom are old enough to have justifiably been charged as adults–will be serving a year or two in juvie for their crimes
–The hacker faces up to 10 years in prison for acting as a whistleblower
What part of this does NOT appear to be “something monolithic that permeates through out all strata of society” to you?
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 12:36 am
Derailing and tone arguments. Again.
I know that you don’t get that people have been discussing this topic for decades and that huge amounts of effort have gone into accurately describing the phenomenon and considering how to discuss it with the public. But you could at least take a minute to stop and do some research on the the concept of rape culture before you open your mouth and display your utter ignorance.
You are saying nothing new. You are saying nothing important or significant in any way. You are making an argument that has been made many times, that has been considered, and that has been found to be utter BS. You’re bringing Ptolemic epicycles into a conversation about special relativity. It’s boring, it’s annoying, and trying to explain to you why and how you’re wrong derails the conversation.
Zeborah
June 21, 2013 @ 12:57 am
Let me summarise with a few relevant quotes:
Jim in his first post: “And when men respond to these conversations by trying to reframe them as a personal attack or accusation, it takes the focus off of the problem of rape and derails the conversation.”
W: “I just rarely see it brought up in a way that doesn’t make men feel attacked in the process.”
Me: “Oh, God forbid men should feel attacked in a discussion about women, um, being attacked.”
Damiana: “You weren’t attacked, and certainly not for your suggestion. You were told you were wrong”
W: “So statements like: “Oh God forbid!” and “shut the fuck up!” don’t qualify?”
—
This is a perfect illustration of why the Tone Argument is wrong. Because no matter how calm and reasonable and polite and nice women are, if you don’t like the conversation (or, sorry, you’re just concerned that some other men mightn’t like the conversation) you can always claim that something is “an attack”.
I’ll say it again: in this conversation, the only “attack” we should be talking about is rape.
I can’t control your feelings. Only you can do that, and I need you to do it right now. Because I’m not attacking you. I’m just telling you something that you don’t want to hear, but you really need to hear it:
You’re doing what Jim warned. You’re reframing the conversation as a personal attack when it isn’t. You’re taking the focus off the problem of rape, and you’re derailing the conversation. You didn’t mean to, but you are, and you need to stop that now.
I know it’s not easy. But you’ve made it clear you have good intentions. So step up and make the effort. Thank you.
Ben
June 21, 2013 @ 12:58 am
You are totally misrepresenting Ken Hoinsky. His book is about seduction, which is the opposite of rape. Instead of picking some quotes out of context, you should try to understand what he’s saying first, before making such vile accusations.
Damiana
June 21, 2013 @ 1:08 am
Hi Ben–
I’ve read the full section on “physical escalation and sex”.
What it advocates is assault, plain and simple.
If you’re having trouble understanding WHY what he is advocating is assault, try this: Read through that section thinking of it as him telling guys how they should treat YOU. Maybe you’ve gone out for a beer with a guy from work who’s been trying to get you to go get a beer for a while now. While you’re out, he forcibly picks you up and sits you on his lap and holds you there. He rubs his hand up and down your back and your leg. At some point when you’re alone with him, he whips out his erect cock and puts your hand on it. If you tell him “no”, is it a REAL no, or a no that means “oh fuck me hard?” If it’s a real no, don’t worry! He’ll back off… and then try again.
Does this sound like “seduction” to you? Or does it sound like he’s getting arrested after you beat him senseless?
Hannah Steenbock
June 21, 2013 @ 1:10 am
Long ago, when I had to walk through a park practically every evening coming home from work at night, I wrote this poem. This is how I felt four evenings EVERY week, for a couple of years. Maybe this makes it a little clearer what rape culure means for women:
Every evening I prepare
for my last stand
when I walk through the park
going home after getting off the bus.
I walk with a spring in my steps
my hands are ready to fight
I feel strong and warm
my thoughts are full of violence.
Wouldn’t it be nice
to enjoy the soft breeze
the scent of the pines and wet grass,
the occasional glimpse of the moon?
But I prepare for my last stand
every evening walking home
from the bus.
Alone in the park.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 1:12 am
Congratulations! You are one of the many reasons why we have to fear every man we meet.
Coercion is not seduction — and badgering someone until they give in is coercion. Forcibly grabbing a woman is not seduction, it is assault. Grabbing a woman’s hand and putting it on your penis is not seduction, it is sexual assault.
Based on this, I would have to assume that you’re one of those men who do not understand what consent is, and who has “had sex with” a woman who did not consent — i.e., raped her. At least one. I would have to assume it simply for my own safety.
Amanda
June 21, 2013 @ 1:16 am
Yes, yes, all of this. Rape culture puts all of the pressure on women to prevent rape. Rape culture insists that men are slavering horndogs who can’t control themselves and can’t read body language, so women just need to make themselves clearer– uhhh, is this how you want to be represented, dudes? Because I would be insulted by this stereotype if I was a guy. Every movie or TV show that follows the hilarious antics of a guy doing anything to get laid (and being insulted and degraded by other guys if he can’t score) reinforces this dynamic of “men MUST obtain sex to be manly men, any woman will do, any means to get her in the sack is just part of the game.” This culture is no good for anyone.
Rape culture means that public transportation is a no-win scenario for women. If you regularly use the bus/subway/trolley you WILL be harassed, sometimes multiple times per week. It goes from polite questions to insistent questions to angry epithets when you refuse to give further information or your phone number or allow physical contact. These men are probing our boundaries to see how close they can get before we push back. They’re testing for weakness. This is mentally exhausting and makes us paranoid.
When women grow paranoid about these encounters they begin to rudely cut off any guy who approaches them. This causes guys to whine, “Why are women so mean? Why do you assume I’m a rapist? I just wanted friendly conversation. Why don’t you give me THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT?” But the fact is, the supposed nice guys and the groping guys start off asking *the same exact questions.* “How’s it going?” “What are you reading?” “Why do you look so serious? SMILE!” And I can’t help asking: if you just wanted friendly conversation, why didn’t you try talking to another man? And if that man indicated that he really just wanted to keep reading his book, would you shout at him and call him names?
If we’re polite to everyone who approaches us, eventually one of them is going to try to grope us, or get us off in a corner, or stalk us through a bar/party waiting for us to appear tipsy. And then when we’re attacked, we don’t get to say, “I gave him the benefit of the doubt!” Because everyone else blames us and asks, “Why did you keep talking to him? You gave him the wrong signal!”
London
June 21, 2013 @ 1:20 am
I respect your take on the Steubenville case. No matter how local or national the events were, it was one of the most appalling examples of mass human failing I’ve witnessed.
However, the outrage over the Steubenville case, to me, demonstrates there isn’t a monolithic culture. It showed a small town sporting culture that enables and collaborates with rapists, while a majority of Americans were appalled. (Which doesn’t mean there wasn’t a vocal minority dismissing rape, offering more empathy for the perpetrators than the victims, etc.) It appears to me that is distinct from military rape (different motivations for cover-ups and possibly for actions/justifications by the perpetrators), serial rape (likely less influenced by culture and a majority of rapists), and harassment.
Steubenville reminds me of the Penn State/Sandusky molestations. In both instances, people who could have stopped horrific crimes chose to protect a popular sporting team. After the revelation, many of the fans looked to find blame elsewhere. There isn’t a more vilified crime than child molester. Yet, Penn State and many of its fans reacted much in the way the officials and residents of Steubenville did.
Were these events representative of a broad spectrum and strata of American society? I don’t claim grand insight, although I suspect not.
No matter whether localized or not, what is the most effective way to change the way people think about sexual predators? Confrontational language has a poor track-record of social change. I don’t believe using terms like “rape culture” opens minds to change.
The fastest societal attitude l change I can think of has been the acceptance of gays. This change happened after the gay rights community changed their approach from confrontation to education and empathy. The parallel is far from perfect, but making people feel bad about themselves didn’t work. Making them aware that gay people are their neighbors, co-workers and family members did. It’s more difficult to make people confront the cruel realities of rape, but I don’t believe many people want to believe they have responsibility. You have to work around that—make them see that particular behaviors cause damage, rather than try making them feel responsible for things they have not directly done.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 1:22 am
And now you demonstrate your utter ignorance of the gay rights movement in addition to your utter ignorance of feminism and rape culture. You’re on a roll, hon.
Amanda
June 21, 2013 @ 1:24 am
Yeahhh I’m not sure if this is your intent, but you make it sound like rape is relatively new to our culture, or that changes in society mean kids aren’t being taught properly by their parents. Back in the “good old days” women couldn’t go around in public without a chaperone because of the threat of rape (or any sexual conduct, really, consensual or not). Raped women committed suicide rather than face public disgrace (and, tragically, still do). There are plenty of stories of fathers going insane after their daughters were raped and killing the whole family to erase the shame of, apparently, her crime of being raped. I was doing some research on a completely unrelated topic last year that involved sifting through some old newspapers from the ’40s. In this golden era of the Greatest Generation there were a series of articles about women being attacked on their way home from working in factories during WWII. So I dunno how far back you are imagining this wonderful pre-media era in which children were raised not to commit crime.
Susan
June 21, 2013 @ 1:36 am
Agree with all of this.
Even subconsciously, women have to weigh the potential for violence on a virtually continuous basis. It colors our lives in a way most men cannot even begin to comprehend.
London
June 21, 2013 @ 1:58 am
MadG, if Jim’s forum is a self-help group, I’ll bow out and never respond to anything on the topic of rape or harassment again. Debate in such a place would be inappropriate.
If, however, Jim posts his articles to reach out and change culture, then working with non-trolls who are wrong (assuming I am) is a chance to change minds for the better. Insulting me, and telling me my argument is “utter BS” without bothering to address it does not facilitate conversation. It assumes that I’m posting with ill-intent, and cannot, will not change my mind. If I’m just a troll, unable to do anything other than bore and annoy, than why not ignore me?
Next time, if you’ll pardon advice from a multiple offender (“Again”), rather than assuming I’m subhuman, point me to one of these articles that demonstrates the errors of my arguments and assumptions. Show me the debates that already found my opinion to be wanting. Or better yet, engage me in friendly, intellectual discussion. Assume I’m a potential ally who—just maybe—will require you to refine your approach to dealing with people who disagree with you. I’ve found my arguments improve when I’m confronted with people who challenge them in a friendly manner. (My arguments get worse, if anything, when I engage in heated debate focussed on proving what a twit the other person is.)
If you want to engage with me, you might start with what about my tone you found problematic. I just don’t see it. I wrote that before the basketball game and posted it afterwards so I could review it with some distance. To me, it reads respectful and measured. Your tone, alas, not so much.
BTW, I liked the Ptolemic epicycles/relativity line. Insulting and uninformative, but witty. I’d rate it five Ann-Coulters or four Dorothy-Parkers. I’d be curious to read your not-trying-to-prove-your-superiority writing.
London
June 21, 2013 @ 2:03 am
Thanks, hon. I’d love to continue this informative discussion, but I’m kind of tired now. Sweet dreams.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 2:04 am
Just to further make the point: Have you heard of the Mattachine Society? Have you heard of Stonewall?
Mattachine, in the 60s and 70s, tried the nice, respectable approach. It tried coming out, it tried gently educating the straight masses. It has essentially no effect.
The Stonewall Riots, on the other hand, were large, were noisy. Drag queens and butches and more fought back. A helluva lot more people heard about gays simply existing from Stonewall than from Mattachine.
It took the activists, the fighters, the rioters, the demonstrators, the loud people, the obnoxious people… it took all of them, all of us, to get to the point where more mild-mannered queers were safe enough to come out of the closet. If you don’t think that was an enormous step forward, then you know absolutely nothing about the gay rights movement.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 2:06 am
And there it is again. You get to walk away, to go to sleep, to ignore all of it. But I’m a woman, and I’m queer, and I can’t ever get away from this. Queer bashing and rape following me into my dreams. It doesn’t matter how tired I get of it: this is my life.
That’s why your ignorance and condescension and ‘splaining are so incredibly insulting and vile.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 2:11 am
I have not assumed ill intent. I have pointed out ill effect, because I have seen the ill effects of your words again and again.
It is not my fault you are ignorant, and it is not my responsibility to educate you. Your education is your own responsibility. I’ve told you where there’s a hole in your knowledge. Go do the homework for yourself. I did. And I tell you that because I assume you are human, and capable of educating yourself.
The information is out there. The arguments are out there. This has been discussed for decades. The term rape culture first saw print in 1974. If you don’t know the history and the discussion, it’s because you haven’t bothered to learn. I’m not a women’s studies professor. I don’t get paid to educate ignoramuses, and I do not choose to do so.
Take some responsibility for yourself.
AJHall
June 21, 2013 @ 2:44 am
What????
The whole “kids are out of control” thing has been being parrotted in similar circumstances since the days of the Roman Empire and probably earlier, but, as a friend of mine who specialises in the history of gender and sexuality commented the other day, somehow the handbasket keeps holding together and it never quite reaches its destination.
But what the last decade or so has shown is that cultures of deference to authority of the sort you refer to as “Years back, when someone from a part of society said something is bad, little ones listened. because adults were concerned of what that office/group/uniform said.
THE SOCIETY was rigged to educate restraint in the individual” has actually fostered the exploitation of the vulnerable. Because when the priest or the football coach said it was bad to object to his putting his hand there or his penis there the little ones did indeed listen, or if they didn’t, and complained to their parents or teachers they were told to shut up about it, because the authority figures couldn’t be shown to be wrong, because it would damage the institution, which was – always – far more important than the individual victims.
The more influential the organisation, the more the pressure on the weak to keep silence in the face of abuse flourished. And that’s why historical patterns of abuse in the Catholic church, the Anglican church, the armed forces, schools and universities and the BBC flourished; your argument of “a few bad apples” falls, because even if there are only a few active perpetrators, the culture of cover-up, of “don’t ask questions”, of “don’t challenge the leaders” is what allows them to flourish.
But I do actually agree whole-heartedly with your conclusion as to what will cut back on the prevalance of rape: “Personal intervention and education of the youth, so they grow up inoculated against the influence that destroys society. Belief in “everybody says” and disregard of basic morals. (dont steal, respect others, etc)”
What I can’t understand is that since you believe this is a question of education, you appear to be objecting to the opposition this book, which quite clearly is intended to promote everything you state you’re against.
Susan
June 21, 2013 @ 2:47 am
This was a disturbing week with Serena Williams defending the Steubenville rapists and blaming the victim. Then I read this–and some of the comments–and I’m literally shaking with anger and nausea. Don’t get me wrong: the post was amazing and made me feel such hope for change. But that didn’t last long.
I don’t think my experiences or circle of acquaintances is unusual–in fact, both are probably fairly limited–yet I personally know a shocking number of women who have been sexually assaulted, some in the most brutal and vicious ways imaginable. How is it that I know two women who have been raped, had their throats cut, and left for dead? Women of all ages (into their 70s). Women in their offices, homes, exercising, commuting to/from work. Women raped by strangers, “friends,” and family members. Women just trying to live their lives and then having this horror inflicted on them.
These are the stories I know, but I have to assume that there are even more stories that haven’t been shared.
And it’s not limited to actual rape. It’s the groping, the catcalls, the jokes, the unwanted comments, being approached by strangers. How many men have to put up with obscene phone calls (even at work) and have to worry about who this person is and how far they’ll go? Or have the driver in the car next to them try to strike up a conversation–while that other driver is jerking off. It ranges from annoying to truly frightening–and it’s pervasive. It’s the everyday, insidious events that accumulate and accumulate. And, God forbid, if women react negatively to these “milder” offenses, they’re “bitches,” “overreacting,” or “not being good sports.” Because women are supposed to be nice and accommodating even to creeps. Even to creeps who might just escalate things and rape or murder them.
Men don’t live in a vacuum–they know women that these things happen to. They can’t kid themselves that it can’t/doesn’t happen to women in their circles. I can’t imagine that this is the kind of world they want their wives, girlfriends, daughters, friends, or any other human being to live in. These are the men, the good men, that we rely on to step up and do the right thing. So why is it so hard for them to face reality and educate themselves and other men–including their sons–and try to make a difference without nit-picking about how the subject is being approached or the tone of the discussion? But I guess it apparently is.
I’m angry, but I think I’m even more sad and discouraged.
AJHall
June 21, 2013 @ 2:51 am
Actually, Lewis E. Miranda’s argument based on numbers breaks down on simple marketing theory. Everyone who’s studied it knows that the great marketing hurdle is conversion; switching an expression of interest into an actual sale (actually, from what I can gather PUA simply apply discredited 1950s textbooks on marketing theory and the “hard sell” to the sexual arena).
And the percentages who move from fleeting interest to established interest, from established interest to possible customer and from possible customer to actual customer drop exponentially each time. So for there to be 737 people actually committing money to the project, that means they are underpinned by a great pyramid of people who thought seriously about donating but whose discretionary budget didn’t allow it, or who couldn’t get the Kickstarter interface to work, or who were about to when the window closed, and they in turn were underpinned by an even vaster sub-pyramid who thought “Neat idea!” but never had any thought of cash support.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 3:06 am
But OUR numbers are based on studies of actual behavior of actual people when it comes to actual rape. Reality is more accurate than theory.
And the people who saw that kickstarter were not a random sample.
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 7:37 am
“Where’s that study of college men that should that, what, one in twenty of them would admit that they had raped, as long as that word was never used?”
Check the “Men as Perpetrators” section of the post.
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 7:39 am
“737 idiots supported the rape-supporting-book indicated in the article. Assuming 5,000,000 people nationwide saw this , 3 in 10,000 agreed with it.”
You’ve got at least two assumptions going on here. The first is that five million people saw a random Kickstarter project. The second is that only the people who donated money agreed with what the project was doing.
Both of those assumptions strike me as flawed.
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 7:44 am
“But, to people outside of the community, “rape culture” doesn’t carry the connotations and data you assign to it. It sounds like an attack on their culture. Worse, for the average person who doesn’t think of themselves as condoning, excusing, or enabling rape, it sounds like a personal insult.”
Can you clarify what community you’re referring to here, and what people you’re trying to speak for?
In my experience, it doesn’t matter that much what terminology gets used. There will be people who immediately attack the terminology and try to twist it in such a way as to derail conversation and transform it from (in this case) a description of the many factors that permeate our culture to facilitate rape into a personal accusation that all men are rapists.
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 7:49 am
Of course. Because you are clever, you put it in there. 🙂
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 7:56 am
London,
Part of the problem is that you’re asking for friendly, intellectual debate about something that isn’t simply an intellectual issue to many of the people talking here.
For example, if my loved ones were tortured to death, and someone comes along and wants to have a nice, intellectual debate about what is and isn’t *really* torture, and whether it’s justified, and so on, that’s going to get ugly. It comes off like the first person is treating it as an exercise in rhetoric, or even just a game, whereas to me it’s a very real and immediate thing.
Without wanting to generalize too much, it’s something I’ve seen most often (but not exclusively) when talking to men about rape. They play devil’s advocate or present their understanding of the facts (which is often incorrect), or play Monday-morning quarterback to people who have been working to end rape for decades, people who are immersed in fighting the problem and see it every day.
Linkspam, 6/21/13 edition — Radish Reviews
June 21, 2013 @ 8:37 am
[…] […]
Ben
June 21, 2013 @ 9:01 am
You are still taking it out of context. Try again.
Ben
June 21, 2013 @ 9:02 am
Ad hominem — how classy!
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 9:11 am
Calling rape “seduction” — how classy!
Ad hominem is when you say “Ben is a narwhal, therefor we can’t believe anything he says ever.” What I said was, “Ben said that attempting to coerce women into having sex was ok, therefor for my safety, I must assume that Ben is dangerous to me, and quite likely a rapist.” Can you see the difference there?
Well, probably not, since you you also can’t see the difference between consenting sex and rape.
Ben
June 21, 2013 @ 9:29 am
I said that seduction is the opposite of rape. How you then conclude I am a rapist is beyond me. I know the difference, but it seems you don’t.
AJHall
June 21, 2013 @ 9:32 am
OK, your specialist subject is “Seduction or rape, which is it?”
Question one: is a consensual sexual encounter being described here?
“”Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.” And: “Make her push your hand away as you get closer to her vagina.” Also: “Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.”
MadGastronomer
June 21, 2013 @ 9:37 am
And again you demonstrate that you are unwilling to accept a woman’s answer if it’s not the one you want to hear.
Badgering a woman until she gives up out of fear and exhaustion is not seduction. Grabbing her and forcing her into closer contact with you is not seduction. There is no context in which these things do not violate consent. If you don’t understand what consent is, then you have probably violated it in the past and will continue to violate it in the future.
Damiana
June 21, 2013 @ 11:38 am
I am not taking it out of context. The essay is based on faulty assumptions, all of which boil down to “if a woman is there in the same space as you, then obviously she wants it and anything you do in order to get it is acceptable”.
Unless the use of force is negotiated and agreed to ahead of time, it is coercion, not seduction. (It is also a crime.)
If a woman WANTS to touch a man’s dick, she will, all by herself. If it happens because he whipped out his dick and grabbed her hand and put it on his dick, that is NOT seduction, it is physical coercion, and it’s also creepy as all get out. (And it’s also a crime.)
If you want to know how to seduce a woman, ASK WOMEN. It’s not like it’s some arcane secret that we’re sworn to protect. And if a woman–or several women–tell you “no, what you’re saying is NOT RIGHT, DON’T DO THAT” then chances are THEY’RE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH.
Do yourself a favor and pay attention.
Russ Hansen
June 21, 2013 @ 1:18 pm
The only difference between you and me is that I do not have entire web pages dedicated to my redefinition of a radical feminist ideal that persecutes men. It is not a “men’s group” attempt to derail the discussion. Should anyone bring up the idea that rape is a culturally supported thing in the US, they are wrong. The only thing that is supported in the US is the “i didn’t do it” culture, which includes rape.
I will say, by estimate of my own experience with rape victims, that 999 out of 1000 rape accusations are true. It is very rarely falsely used. But for the man facing 1 chance out of 1000, that is cold comfort. The “rape culture” is nothing in the US. It is an effective means to utterly destroy 1 out of 1000 men, by our very _real_ cultural reaction to the mere charge of rape, and if you multiply that by the population, I think you might reconsider your opinion that this topic is not about criminalizing all men and their sexuality.
That’s more eloquently put than on Laura Anne’s blog. I respectfully _disagree_ with you.
Seth
June 21, 2013 @ 1:24 pm
My actions are my responsibility. If I feel bad and I don’t want to feel bad, then I have the responsibility to act so as not to feel bad. This might mean that I leave a conversation. If your goal was to have me leave the conversation, then you accomplished it. If your goal was to have me learn from the conversation, it was not achieved.
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 1:29 pm
Russ,
Believe me, that’s not the only difference.
Let’s start by pointing out that simply saying, “Anyone who believes this is wrong” doesn’t prove or support your point in any way.
You believe rape culture is all about destroying 1 out of 1000 men through false accusations? That this conversation, all of the studies, all of the dialogue, is *really* about bringing down .1% of the male population?
And that because .1% of the male population (by your estimate) are allegedly being brought down, that somehow criminalizes *all* men and their sexuality???
This is the argument you came over here to make?
Jim C. Hines
June 21, 2013 @ 1:31 pm
Seth – there’s a third possibility, which is that other people’s goals weren’t actually about you.
London
June 21, 2013 @ 1:52 pm
Jim,
I appreciate your response. But I think it highlights a real problem if the goal is changing beliefs. You’re a popular writer and blogger who uses your platform to correct misinformation and educate people. But if somebody comes here and nobody can deal with their disagreements constructively, no minds are changed.
Every person who posts a sincere disagreement is somebody who can be engaged. You won’t win everyone of them over, but changing culture requires changing individuals minds. It doesn’t matter if the subject has been discussed for decades and universal consensus has been reached within the activist community. The activist community doesn’t need to change their mind. It’s the people who don’t agree with you.
When Daminia* responded to my post, she assumed good intent on my part and offered me an argument. I disagreed with her conclusions, but my reply included 7 conditionals that imply that a) I recognize that these are my opinions, not facts, and b) I’m potentially persuadable if further engaged. That’s a potential win if you think that my objections to the term “rape culture” needs to be corrected.
Compare that to MadG’s response, which I believe you’re implicitly defending: Emotionally, I understand it entirely within the context you give, Jim. But as a tool for advocacy and change, it is an attempt to drive me out of the room. It’s hostile and condescending.
MadG puts the burden of changing my mind on me. Um, why would I do that? I already have an opinion. When you want to change somebody’s mind, the burden is on you. Full stop, no conditionals. If my statements are ignorant, than inform me.
Yeah, I know, that’s all fucking annoying. These other people don’t have enough empathy to get that touching somebody who doesn’t want to be touched is wrong. They should fix themselves. But it doesn’t work like that. The people who want to change minds (and I’m one of them) have to figure out how to reach people where they live, on terms that don’t make them defensive. If the term “rape culture” is constantly met with “but not all men are rapists,” its not creating opportunities to change minds. It’s a term that implies that our nation is broken—Americans, and particularly conservative Americans—don’t like that message, don’t listen to it.
I believe criminal justice has some insight to offer in how to engage people who think and do bad things. America locks up more people than any other nation and has longer sentences than most. Yet, our recidivism rates are middling at best. In Scandinavia, prison sentences are shorter and prisoners are treated respectfully. In the most successful program on earth, Norway (?—might be Finland) transitions inmates to a facility where the guards are prisoners a year or two before release.** Why does this create such low rates of recidivism? In part because inmates learn skills for the outside, but, more relevant to this discussion, because they are engaged where they are at without focusing on blame.
If you want this forum to be a safe space for people who have been traumatized by rape, that’s a worthy thing. But if you want this to be a place where you can reach the people who read your blogposts, but are on the fence, people have to be engaged. (You do and others do this—but the overall environment is not conducive to changing minds). When you want to engage with people for the purpose of changing their minds, language matters. Approach matters.
I’m going to bow out. I’ve given my points as well as I can. (And despite not agreeing on approach, I agree on the issues.)
I sincerely appreciate your dedication, Jim. I have great respect for you and the other people who keep fighting what at times seems like a Sisyphusian effort.
*Daminia’s initial response to Ben (below) was a brilliant example of engaging somebody. She reframed his concerns to let him see (if he wanted to) how his assumptions don’t hold up. It wasn’t threatening or angry, just informative. And, yeah, it didn’t work. Not everybody can be reached or reached right away. That’s why activism is hard.
**I’m leaving out a lot of details. The program has rules about who is eligible, etc., to make it work.