Fiskception: Dissecting Correia’s Critique of MacFarlane
1/30: Comments are back on, in case there are points you feel you need to make that haven’t already been covered in the ~350 posted comments from yesterday. The goblins (and fire-spider) stayed away yesterday, but will be munching comments today as needed.
Hint: if you demean a human being’s gender or sexual preference by equating it to an attraction to animals or furniture? If you question the mental health of an individual who doesn’t fit into your narrow worldview? The goblins will eat your comment.
While we’re at it, I’ve noticed a few people responding to arguments from both me and Correia by basically saying, “Well, his books suck!” Can we not do that? Unless it’s directly relevant to the argument, it feels like a cheap shot, and doesn’t actually address what’s being discussed. So yeah, the goblins will be munching on off-topic book-bashing, too.
1/31: I don’t believe I actually have to say this, but telling someone that they, or people just like them, made Naziism what it was, will also get your comments fed to the goblins.
3/21: I’m closing comments for good. People have moved on to other arguments, and this post seems to be getting spam-bombed pretty heavily for some reason…
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This is gonna be a long one.
The backstory: Author Alex Dally MacFarlane wrote an article called Post-Binary Gender in SF: An Introduction over at Tor.com, calling for “an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.”
One week later, author Larry Correia wrote a response to MacFarlane’s piece, called Ending Binary Gender in Fiction, or How to Murder Your Writing Career. (Side note: you’ll probably want to avoid the comments on that one.)
I tried to ignore it. There’s no way I’m going to change Correia’s mind about this stuff, any more than his post changed my thinking. But of course, there are a lot of other people lurking and participating in the conversation, and while I know this is going to do bad things to my blood pressure, I think it’s a conversation worth having.
I’m following Correia’s general style here. My responses will be italicized. His original content is indented.
This was sent to me on Facebook the other day. I made some comments there, but then I got to thinking about it and decided this thing was such a good example of how modern sci-fi publishing has its head stuck up its ass that it really deserved its own blog post. My response is really directed toward the aspiring writers in the crowd who want to make a living as writers, but really it works for anybody who likes to read, or who is just tired of angsty emo bullshit.
I wonder which is more angsty … an author calling for our genre to move beyond binary gender, or another author spending 4000+ words about how people like MacFarlane are symbolic of everything that’s wrong with the genre, and are destroying fun.
Okay, aspiring author types, you will see lots of things like this, and part of you may think you need to incorporate these helpful suggestions into your work. After all, this is on Tor.com so it must be legit. Just don’t. When you write with the goal of checking off boxes, it is usually crap. This article is great advice for writers who want to win awards but never actually be read by anyone.
I agree that if you’re writing a story with the kind of checklist Correia describes, you’re probably going to get a bad story. But what exactly are the suggestions Correia objects to? MacFarlane never says all writers must now include at least one non-binary character. She says only that she wants readers to be aware of non-binary texts, and wants writers to stop defaulting to them. Not that authors should never write cismale or cisfemale characters. Just be aware that there are other choices, and make conscious choices about your writing.
Now do yourself a favor and read the comments… I’ll wait… Yeah… You know how when my Sad Puppies posts talk about the “typical WorldCon voter”? Those comments are a good snapshot of one subtype right there.
From the comments to Correia’s piece:
- “I am so tired of these pretentious twats. Err, dicks. Err… pre-op alternative genitals.”
- “The hilarious thing is my books are filled with characters who are non-white, non-male, non-straight, occasionally trans and from a mixmaster of genetic and cultural backgrounds … But I don’t write books for leftist pussies so they’ve never read my books.”
- “If this is the level of education of the typical WorldCon voter, it’s no wonder the GOOD writers don’t win awards. These loonies wouldn’t recognize good writing if Earl Harbinger yanked out their guts and used the intestines to piece out quotes from Jane Austen.”
Do we really want to start arguing about what one’s commenters say about one’s audience?
I also know from that Facebook thread that a lot of people tried to comment and disagree for various reasons, but their posts were deleted. (and some of them even swore that they were polite!). But like most modern lefty crusades, disagreement, in fact, anything less than cheerleading, is “intolerance” and won’t be tolerated. Meanwhile, my FB thread had lots of comments and an actual intelligent discussion of the pros and cons from both sides (and even transsexual communists who actually like to enjoy their fiction thought this Tor.com post was silly), so remember that the next time a snooty troll calls my fans a “right wing echo chamber.”
If Tor.com is deleting comments for disagreement, then that’s a serious problem. But skimming through the 100+ comments on the article, I find plenty that disagree with MacFarlane, or argue with what she’s saying. Tor.com does have a moderation policy, so I’d expect comments that violated that policy to get booted. Beyond that, I don’t know the details of the allegedly polite commenters who claim to have been booted for not cheerleading enough, so there’s not much more for me to say about this one.
ETA: I’m told one comment was deleted for stating that non-binary people are mentally ill, which would seem to violate #1, #2, and #4 on Tor.com’s moderation policy. There may have been other deletions, but this is the only one I’m aware of.
ETA2: One of the Tor.com moderators comments on the deletions here.
If you can’t stomach the comments long enough to hear what a typical WorldCon voter sounds like, let me paraphrase: “Fantastic! I’m so sick of people actually enjoying books that are fun! Let’s shove more message fiction down their throats! My cause comes before their enjoyment! Diversity! Gay polar bears are being murdered by greedy corporations! Only smart people who think correct thoughts like I do should read books and I won’t be happy until my genre dies a horrible death! Yay!” (and if there is beeping noise in the background, that’s because they’re backing up their mobility scooter).
So let’s break this pile of Gender Studies 101 mush down into its component bits and see just why some sci-fi writers won’t be happy until their genre dies completely. Like my usual Fisking, the original article is in italics and my comments are in bold.
Because calling for an awareness that not all people fit into a simple binary gender system = KILL ALL THE SCIENCE FICTION!!!
In other news, I believe we should do something about racism in this country, which actually means I WANT TO DESTROY AMERICA!1!!!1!
Post-Binary Gender in SF: Introduction, by Alex Dally MacFarlane
I want an end to the default of binary gender in science fiction stories.
I want lots of things too, doesn’t mean I can have them. Right out the gate that’s a pretty bold statement. And by bold, I mean ridiculous.
How dare people want things! How ridiculous that people want things I don’t personally agree with! You empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction.
What is this “default of binary gender” he wants to end? It is that crazy old fashioned idea that most (as in the vast majority) of mammals, including humans, can be grouped into male and female based upon whether they’ve got XX or XY chromosomes. Sure, that’s medically true something like 99.999% of the time, which would sort of make it the default.
1. Alex MacFarlane is female.
2. You ask what the default is that she wants to end. She answers that in the following paragraph. Which doesn’t seem to stop you from running off to declare gender = chromosomal/biological sex.
Oh, and “default” means that is your assumed baseline.
So that whole thing where people are male or female except for some tiny exceptions and that is kind of the assumption until proven otherwise is standard, so this guy wants to end that. (I’m assuming Alex is a dude, but then again, that is just me displaying my cismale gendernomrative fascism)
Cismale gendernomrative fascist? Whatever. What Correia is displaying here is his awareness that he’s making an assumption, his awareness that the assumption might be wrong, and his unwillingness to do 30 seconds of research to verify his assumption. Or just read the bio at the end of MacFarlane’s article. Either because he’s lazy, or because he doesn’t see any need to treat people he disagrees with respectfully. Or both.
What do I mean by “post-binary gender”? It’s a term that has already been used to mean multiple things, so I will set out my definition:
Post-binary gender in SF is the acknowledgement that gender is more complex than the Western cultural norm of two genders (female and male): that there are more genders than two, that gender can be fluid, that gender exists in many forms.
Wait… male and female are Western Cultural Norms? Uh… No. That is a biological norm for all the higher life forms on Earth so that species can replicate themselves (keep in mind, this is SCIENCE fiction he wants to change). I like how Western Culture is the root of all that’s evil though, even though male and female are cultural norms in pretty much every human society there has ever been.
Read more carefully. The Western cultural norm is to genders; that doesn’t mean two genders is exclusively a Western cultural norm. See also, nickels are coins, but not all coins are nickels.
And yes, male and female are cultural norms in pretty much every human society EVER! Except Mesopotamia, India, Siberia, Illiniwek, Olmec, Aztec, Maya, Thailand, Lakota, Blackfoot, Indonesia, Swahili, Azande, and all of the other cultures that historically or currently acknowledge the existence of more than two genders.
Also, nitpick. Gender was a grammar term for how you referred to the different sexes. Being male or female is your Sex. Or at least, that’s what the word meant until colleges invented the Gender Studies major for those students who found Liberal Arts way too academically grueling.
Paraphrase: “Ha, ha. People who disagree with me are dumb!”
Now, before we continue I need to establish something about my personal writing philosophy. Science Fiction is SPECULATIVE FICTION. That means we can make up all sorts of crazy stuff and we can twist existing reality to do interesting new things in order to tell the story we want to tell. I’m not against having a story where there are sexes other than male and female or neuters or schmes or hirs or WTF ever or that they flip back and forth or shit… robot sex. Hell, I don’t know. Write whatever tells your story.
But the important thing there is STORY. Not the cause of the day. STORY.
Because readers buy STORIES they enjoy and when readers buy our stuff, authors GET PAID.
I … actually, I pretty much agree with him here. People read for story, not for checklists or quotas or lectures. I see nothing in MacFarlane’s article to suggest she believes any differently. Calling for authors to be more thoughtful about their craft doesn’t mean you’re telling authors to abandon story for MESSAGE.
But you know, readers also tend to enjoy stories where they can find characters like themselves. Which is easy if you’re a straight white dude, and gets progressively more difficult the further you stray from that default. Maybe if we want to write enjoyable stories, we should try looking beyond the same old default that’s been done again and again throughout the history of the genre.
Robert Heinlein had stories where technology allowed switching sex. Great. That’s actually a pretty normal sci-fi trope where in the future, there’s some tech that allows people to change shape/sex, whatever, and we’ve got grandmasters of sci-fi who have pulled off humans evolving into psychic space dolphins or beings of pure energy. If that fits into the story you want to tell and you want to explore that, awesome for you. I’ve read plenty of stories where that was part of that universe. If your space whales that live inside the sun have three sexes, awesome (that one was my novella push on Sad Puppies 1).
But this post wasn’t about, hey write whatever mind expanding sci-fi ideas you want, nope, it want to end the norm in order to push a message. Post like this are all the same. You can swap the message around, and whatever the particular norm is, or whatever the particular message is, when you put your pet-peeve message before story, odds are you are going to bore the shit out of your reader.
Yep. Putting message before story will tend to bore your reader.
Now, if the only way you can imagine including a “non-default” character in your story is to make it a Message Story, then guess what — you’re probably a shitty writer. You can have gay characters in a story without making it a Gay Story. Austistic characters without having to write an Autism Story. Black characters without having to write a Race Story.
It’s a pretty big world out there. Why are we so scared to write about more than a limited, narrow piece of it?
People who do not fit comfortably into the gender binary exist in our present, have existed in our past, and will exist in our futures. So too do people who are binary-gendered but are often ignored, such as trans* people who identify as binary-gendered.
Will exist in the future? Probably. Should they be the default for your story? No way. Ignored? Hardly. Is that denying reality?
I don’t know what he’s saying here.
Okay, so I write a book, and let’s say that it has 20 characters in it. What is the acceptable percentage of them that should be transgender? How many boxes must I check in order to salve a blogger’s liberal angst? Let’s see… Only like 1 in 50,000 people have sex changes performed. So at 20 characters a book… If I have one character who has had a sex change show up every 2,500 books I write, I’d be statistically accurate.
Oh, yay. We’re back to quotas and checklists.
Ignoring the uncited and inaccurate statistics here, let’s flip this around. How many musclebound manly white men do I have to write about in my stories in order to convince people like Correia that it’s not a secret subversive left-wing liberal Message? How many big-busted blonde women need to throw themselves on my hero’s penis to satisfy his insecurities that non-white, non-male people might start to have an actual voice?
Oh, but now you’re going to tell me that gay people make up anywhere from 1-4% of the population. Fantastic. Except gay people are still the same sex they were born with. Gay dudes are still men and gay chicks are still women. This blogger didn’t say he wanted an end to default sexual orientation, he wants an end to default binary sex. If you think sci-fi doesn’t have people who don’t swing both ways, you’ve not read much sci-fi.
Right, so you’re throwing bad statistics out about a made-up argument that you acknowledge MacFarlane didn’t even bring up.
I think you’re wrong, because kitties are cuter than puppies. Which has nothing to do with anything Correia actually said, but that seems to be how we’re playing the game now.
Now, if I’m writing a sci-fi story set in Space Berkley or the Tenderloin District of the Future, then I’d probably have plenty of Hirs and Shmisters or whatever. Whatever fits the story, but until then how about not trying to enforce Equal Opportunity against our imaginary people?
(and if you really want to get crazy in the speculative fiction department, what with all this BS with made up pronouns to get rid of Him and Her, what the hell are romance languages supposed to do? Latino. Latina. Latinu? Latinsexyrobot?)
Language should be static and never evolve, which is why all future blog posts will be written in ancient Sumerian.
Here’s the problem. From a nuts and bolts story telling perspective, your readers are going to assume that everything in your book is similar to the world they currently live in, until demonstrated otherwise.
In talking to readers, I find that most of them assume SF/F books will portray worlds dominated by straight white folks. Not exclusively, mind you, but the representation in our genre is most certainly not that close to the world we currently live in.
Unless you say that in the future everybody has been genetically modified to have 3 legs, they are going to assume that all your human characters have two legs. If you are going to demonstrate that something is different, then there needs to be a reason for it. So if you say all humans have 3 legs, but it doesn’t play into the story at all, then why bother? And every time you change something to be different from the expected, there had better be a reason for it or you will quickly just annoy your reader.
I agree. When you make a choice about character, you should have a reason for that choice.
Making a character male or female is a choice. Making a character white is a choice. Making a character straight is a choice. But it’s a choice often made because these are the default, and the writer is lazy.
Reading sci-fi like that grows tiresome. It is like listening to an inexperienced little kid saying “Look, I can do THIS! And now I can do THIS! Isn’t that the neatest thing EVAR!?” And your response is “Yeah, yeah, that’s special…” when you’re really bored as shit and don’t care how tall their Lego tower is the 50th time.
I’m not sure what sci-fi he’s referring to, and I’m a little skeptical about how much of it he’s actually read, given his arguments. But I find stories that explore a more diverse world, that present different characters and stories I haven’t read a thousand times before, to be much more interesting. There’s comfort and enjoyment in reading the same-old genre tropes and tales too, but Correia sounds a lot like he’s bashing a genre you’ve never read.
Also, screw you. My LEGO tower is AWESOME.
If your story is about exploring sexual identity, awesome. Write that story. But only a fool is going to come along and tell you that you need to end the default of all your characters having ten fingers, because there are people in the world born with twelve and how could you be so insensitive to those who have lost fingers? Because awareness.
So if humans having 5 or 6 sexes in the future is part of your story, write it. If it isn’t part of the story, why would you waste words on it? Oh, that’s right, because MESSAGE.
ProTip: Focusing on message rather than story is a wonderful way for writers to continue working at Starbucks for the rest of their lives.
ProTip 2: If the only reason you can think of to include characters who aren’t the default is because MESSAGE, you’re a shitty writer. You might be a popular writer, because there are certainly plenty of people who want to devour books that don’t challenge them in any way, but that doesn’t make you a good writer. That’s probably an argument best saved for another blog post, though.
I am not interested in discussions about the existence of these gender identities: we might as well discuss the existence of women or men. Gender complexity exists. SF that presents a rigid, unquestioned gender binary is false and absurd.
Yes. Topic of the Day X exists! You know what else exists? Child abuse. So I’d better make sure I put that in every book I write.
It’s so much easier to argue with people if I deliberately misinterpret and oversimplify what they’re saying, isn’t it?
Because readers love that. If I’m telling a story about rocket ships, readers love it when your characters pause to have a discussion about animal cruelty, pollution, the dangers of over prescribing psychotropic drugs, or how we need to be sensitive to people with peanut allergies too. Readers are totally into being preached at about author’s favorite causes.
Have you ever gone into Barnes and Noble, went to the clerk at the info desk, and said “Hey, I really want to purchase with my money a science fiction novel which will increase my AWARENESS of troubling social issues.”? No? This is my shocked face.
Not that you can’t get a cause into your story, as long as you do it with skill. But the minute you destroy the default just to destroy the default, congratulations, you just annoyed the shit out of the reader. You want to slip in a message and not annoy your customers, that takes skill, so until you have developed your skills, don’t beat people over the head with your personal hang ups.
How about if my story isn’t in any way, shape, or form concerned with sexual identity (or whatever some reviewer’s personal hang up is today) I don’t waste words writing about it, and readers who want to can just assume that those people exist in the universe but they don’t happen to have speaking parts in this particular novel, if they care enough to think about it at all, which they probably won’t.
“Those People exist in my stories. They’re just not important enough to have speaking parts in this book. Or those other books. Or the majority of the books in our field.”
I intend to use this column to examine post-binary SF texts, both positively and critically, as well as for discussions of points surrounding this subject.
And I intend to use this column to go beyond Ursula K Le Guin’s The Left Hand of Darkness.
Read that a long time ago among the thousands of books I read as a kid. Vaguely remember it. Thought it was good, if I recall correctly.
I liked it, though I have to admit I find LeGuin’s nonfiction even better than her fiction.
Kameron Hurley wrote several years ago about the frustration of The Left Hand of Darkness being the go-to book for mind-blowing gender in SF, despite being written in 1968. Nothing written in the decades since has got the same traction in mainstream SF discourse—
Maybe that’s because Le Guin told a story that happened to have this blogger’s pet topic in it, that was still a story readers found interesting, as opposed to crafting a message fic manifesto, that readers found boring and forgettable?
I think the argument here is that LeGuin is the only one in the past 45 years who’s written about non-binary gender without writing a MESSAGE story. Which is a ridiculous argument, unless you buy into the tautological silliness that any story about non-binary gender = MESSAGE story.
and texts have been written. For a bit of context, 1968 is almost twenty years before I was born, and I’m hardly a child.
HARDLY! Well, there you go. I know when I’m looking for professional advice about how to succeed as a professional writer, I’m going to listen to somebody in their mid-twenties.
Hey, you’d better listen up. I’m betting this blogger went to COLLEGE!
“MacFarlane is wrong because I’m older than her!”
One of the reasons Hurley considers for this situation (raised by someone on a mailing list she belonged to) is that:
“…perhaps Le Guin’s book was so popular because it wasn’t actually as radical as we might think. It was very safe. The hetero male protagonist doesn’t have sex with any of the planet’s inhabitants, no matter their current gender. We go off on a boys’ own adventure story, on a planet entirely populated by people referred to as ‘he,’ no matter their gender. Le Guin is a natural storyteller, and she concentrates on the story. It’s not overly didactic. It’s engaging and entertaining.”
Holy shit… Wait… You mean this story has stuck around because “she concentrates on the story”? Engaging and entertaining? Blasphemy!
Yet, people like this don’t get why message fic books win piles of awards, yet totally fail in the market. See, the problem the modern literati twaddle peddlers run into isn’t that readers are insensitive rubes who don’t understand the plight of whatever their liberal cause of the day is, it is because they want to enjoy what they read. Their entertainment time and money is limited. Why spend it being preached at?
Once again misrepresenting the argument or just missing the point.
The next few paragraphs are very interesting, because they give you a glimpse into the mind of the modern literati.
Alex Dally MacFarlane IS the Modern Literati! She should totally get that on a T-shirt, or turn it into a superhero costume.
The Left Hand of Darkness certainly has been radical, as Hurley says, in its time, in the subsequent years and in the present. I have spoken to several people who found The Left Hand of Darkness immensely important: it provided their first glimpse of the possibility of non-binary gender. The impact that it has had on people’s realisations about their own gender is not something I want to diminish, nor anyone else’s growth in understanding.
However, I do think it can be very palatable for people who haven’t done a lot of thinking about gender. It is, as Hurley says earlier in her post, the kind of story that eases the reader in gently before dropping the gender bombs, and those bombs are not discomfiting for all readers. Of course they’re not. How can one text be expected to radicalise every reader?
I don’t want to cast The Left Hand of Darkness aside. It’s an important part of this conversation. What I do want to do is demonstrate how big that conversation truly is. Other texts have been published besides The Left Hand of Darkness, many of them oft-overlooked—many of them out of print. Some of them are profoundly problematic, but still provide interesting questions. Some of them are incredible and deserve to be considered classics of the genre. Some of them are being published right now, in 2014.
Fascinating. To the literati, books are all about dropping truth bombs. (as long as the truth agrees with their predetermined notions, obviously) This one is about sex, but you could swap that out for the evils of capitalism, or whatever bullshit they’re hung up on today. And of course, since publishing is an insular little industry based in the Manhattan echo chamber of proper goodthink, all the message fic that gets pumped out is stuff that just annoys the regular reading public.
More straw-manning. Yay. But yes, there are in fact people who think that maybe — just maybe — we should have stories that are more than mindless fluff perpetuating the same tired stereotypes. There are also people who recognize that all stories carry certain assumptions and messages and “truths.” Good Triumphs Over Evil. Freedom Is the Bestest Thing in the Universe. Intellectual Arrogance Will Destroy You. If Correia thinks his own personal bullshit doesn’t shape the stories he writes, then he’s a fool.
Also, damn. Bitter, much?
You want a truth bomb? Readers hate being preached at. Period. Even when you agree with the message, if it is ham fisted and shoved in your face, it turns you off. Message fic for message fic’s sake makes for tedious reading. Yet, as this stuff has become more and more prevalent, sci-fi has become increasingly dull, and readership has shrank.
Of course, the literati won’t be happy until everything is boring ass message fic and nobody reads sci-fi anymore, because then they’ll be super special snowflakes.
You know what’s boring? Yet another book about manly straight white dudes doing manly straight white things. You can’t preach about how boring conformity is bad for the genre, then spend 4000 words arguing with someone trying to challenge a piece of that genre conformity.
Okay, obviously you can do that, but I think it’s rather silly.
Amal El-Mohtar wrote a piece about the process of finding—having to find—a pioneering woman writer, Naomi Mitchison, and followed it up with a post where she said:
“It breaks my heart that we are always rediscovering great women, excavating them from the relentless soil of homogenizing histories, seeing them forever as exceptions to a rule of sediment and placing them in museums, remarkable more for their gender than for their work.”
Ah, pseudo-intellectual university humanities department speak… How I have missed you.
Writing should be simple and basic. “Invisible prose.” Because Conformity. Or something.
Yes. Because you shouldn’t elevate a book because you thought it was good and you want to share it with others, you should elevate a book because the sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, or personal philosophy of the author checks a box on the liberal angst/white guilt checklist.
The typical WorldCon voter, when presented with 5 nominees for a category, and their clique’s personal favorite writer isn’t on there, and not having actually read any of the works, will go through the authors and rank them according to the order that best assuages their hang ups. Oooh, a paraplegic transsexual lesbian minority abortion doctor with AIDS who writes for Mother Jones? You’d need a wheelbarrow to carry all the Hugos.
[Citation needed]
Quality? Popularity? Staying power? Influence? Isn’t that what makes something a classic? Not to the modern literati. We have to elevate works by people according to what they checked on their EEOC form. Meanwhile, hatey-McHatertons like me read books and like them, even when we don’t know anything about the author. I didn’t know what sex Lois Bujold or Wen Spencer where the first time I read one of their books, but I knew the writing was good. I couldn’t tell you what writers are gay or like to cross dress either, but I can tell you who I enjoy reading.
You realize that’s what El-Mohtar is saying, right? That we need to stop recognizing women writers as curiosities, noteworthy because, “Hey look, a woman wrote something good!” That we need to move past the assumption that all of the great works of literature were written by men. That we need to stop ignoring women’s accomplishments just because they’re women.
And of course, I know you would never poo-poo a book because it has girl cooties, but historically, that’s certainly been the trend. I’m glad to know you’re on board with wanting to do away with that trend.
It seems to me that there’s a similar process for post-binary texts: they exist, but each reader must discover them anew amid a narrative that says they are unusual, they are rare, they sit outside the standard set of stories. This, at least, has been my experience. I want to dismantle the sediment—to not only talk about post-binary texts and bring them to attention of more readers, but to do away with the default narrative.
Because nothing is going to make an author successful like copying things that were unpopular before.
MacFarlane: “I want to talk about these books and stories that don’t get a lot of attention, and expand the kind of stories we read and create.”
Correia: “Copying unpopular stuff will make you unsuccessful!”
Hines: “Huh???”
That process of (re)discovery is probably inescapable. A bookshop, a library or a friend’s/family member’s bookshelves can’t contain every book ever published, so new readers will always have to actively seek out stories beyond the first ones they encounter. What if, El-Mohtar wonders, the first books often included Naomi Mitchison? What if the first books often included multiple post-binary texts as well?
Wait… So the purpose of reading is to get people to accept non-binary gender? Well, huh… All this time I’ve been under the impression people primarily read for enjoyment. So that’s what I’ve been doing wrong!
Bored now. I hope Correia moves on to something new and interesting soon. The same old misreading and straw-manning is getting dull.
The English professor says: “For young people and new readers, wouldn’t it be nice if we shoved IMPORTANT WORKS about Special Topic X down their throats rather than something they might enjoy? Now I wonder why most Americans don’t read for fun anymore after we beat them over the head through their entire education and forced them to read tedious classics until reading was seen as a chore… Odd.”
And for the small and dwindling percentage of us that still actually like to buy and read books, what I’m getting from this blogger is that they’re thinking “Let’s get this mind blowing stuff out there. Yeah, that’ll rock their little bourgeois world!” Okay, dude… They’re SCIENCE FICTION readers. You’re probably not going to stun them with your big shocking ideas. You really want to shock a sci-fi reader with your book nowadays? Actually entertain them.
As an interesting side note, the Guardian just did a report that revealed how much published authors really make. For most of us, it isn’t that much. I think the average was like 30k. The majority of published writers still have their day jobs. Only the top 1% made six figures.
I am the 1%.
So aspiring authors, if you want to actually make a living doing this, you can either listen to me and put story first, or you can listen to the grad student and focus on the pet message of the day.
Regular readers will know that I always say writers should have GET PAID in their mission statement, the reason I do that is because most of us DON’T.
Correia makes more money than you. Therefore he’s right.
I’ll certainly grant that Larry Correia is a successful writer. Therefore you should do what he does.
So is Ursula LeGuin. Who wrote an amazing novel about non-binary gender that’s still popular today. Therefore you should do what she does.
Look, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT STORY ISN’T IMPORTANT, or that you shouldn’t put story first. What they’re saying is that there are more stories out there, and more characters, and more possibilities to explore.
Conversations about gender in SF have been taking place for a long time. I want to join in.
Judging by how they’ve been “grooming” the comments there, when they say conversations they mean shut up and listen while they lecture you about something.
[Citation needed]
I want more readers to be aware of texts old and new, and seek them out, and talk about them. I want more writers to stop defaulting to binary gender in their SF—I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is binary-gendered. I want this conversation to be louder.
Read that paragraph again and think about it… Think about it really hard. Nuts and bolts. Every single SF book, he wants to default to something other than what your audience thinks is normal. I want more people to seek out not just great books, or mind bending books, but books. Period.
Yep. How dare she wish for books to more accurately reflect the diversity of the real world…
Speaking of great sci-fi, wouldn’t Firefly have been so much better if Captain Mal had been a pre-op transsexual? And just think of the hilarious banter they could have about Jayne not being a girl’s name… never mind, because in the future that is insensitive.
Of course, good writers will just write their characters so that they’re interesting and compelling, rather than to check a box to make a special interest group happy. If I’m writing a story and it would make the story better to have some character be something other than the default, then I can put that in. If it doesn’t have a point, then it is a distraction to the reader.
Characters who are not straight or white or cisgendered male or whatever Larry Correia thinks of as the default have a reason to be included in the story. (Fortunately, white dudes like me don’t need a reason to exist. We’re the normal ones, you see. We’re supposed to be here.)
Here’s a reason: because people other than your narrow-minded “default” exist in the world. Because if you want to write a story that’s in any way reflective of the real world, you have to acknowledge that fact.
Except even then, a Hatey McHaterton like me will still probably do it wrong. There was a bad guy in Swords of Exodus named Diego. This guy was an enforcer for an international crime syndicate. He participated in underground knife fighting arenas against Yakuza and Russian Mafia members for fun. Diego could match Lorenzo in a fight. He was also a gay cross dresser who made a very convincing Celine Dion, so obviously, I got a review that talked about how I hate gay people… Even though in a book where almost all of the characters, including the protagonists, are some degree of bad guy, obviously this character is a demonstration of my homophobic hatey hate mongering.
Then there’s Big Eddie, but really, you can’t think of Eddie that way. His sexual orientation was Hurt People. If you were to give him a psych evaluation to see what his “gender identity” was, he’d check all the boxes, then burn the test and stab the psychologist.
As far as a character’s proclivities, for all you know my books are filled with pre-op transsexuals, only I’m not going to stop and talk about them and what they do off screen. In fact, the only time I talk about a character’s feelings on any topic in a book are when that helps flesh out that character in a manner that helps tell the story I want to tell.
“See, I wrote about a gay cross dresser, so you can’t accuse me of being homophobic!”
To that end, I’ll be running this column: posting every two weeks, with discussions of books and short stories, as well as interviews and roundtables with other writers and readers of post-binary SF,
Oh good. Because this topic really needs to be beaten home. I hear that there are actually some consumers out there who still actually read sci-fi, and we will never rest until this genre becomes so incredibly boring that we drive everyone away!
because I strongly believe it’s important to hear multiple voices.
Just not the ones that disagree in the blog comments.
Again, try reading the comments. Also, you seem to be accusing MacFarlane of deleting comments, when I suspect it’s the Tor.com staff who are responsible for moderating. I’m not 100% sure on that, but I suspect you’ve got your snark crossed here.
I’m particularly interested in science fiction at the moment, but I expect I’ll cross genres as I run the column.
Yeah. I can’t wait until he gets to urban fantasy. Yay.
I hope you’ll join me in making the default increasingly unstable.
Wow. Yeah. I’ll show you, Dad! You can’t tell me what do! Down with your cismale gendernormative fascism!
And back to the mockery and criticizing the author’s age rather than her ideas.
#
Well that was fun. My congratulations to anyone who read this far.
A reminder: I do moderate comments here, because I’m a freedom-hating commie I don’t have time or interest in trolls, name-calling, threats, etc. You’re welcome to comment, but as Wil Wheaton says, don’t be a dick.
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 3:25 pm
53. Anyone going to go above that or do I win?
Michi Trota (@GeekMelange)
January 29, 2014 @ 3:25 pm
Calling for the end of default binary gender characters != no gender binary characters EVAH, which is apparently how some people are interpreting it (either willfully misunderstanding or missing that assumptive jump in logic). It means exactly what it says: stop defaulting to characters that reflect binary gender, and try working outside that little box more. There is absolutely no reason that characters HAVE to be binary gender, other than an author’s own internal biases (unexamined or otherwise), so why should that remain the default?
Anya
January 29, 2014 @ 3:27 pm
I agree with this plan Jim 😉
dave
January 29, 2014 @ 3:27 pm
true, trailer trash elves is a high water mark in English lit. But I’ll see your elves and raise you an Orc sacrificing a chicken to the tail rotor of a Hind.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 3:28 pm
It’s like you can read my mind 😉
I wanted to hurl after the first 150.
Good luck with this.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:28 pm
Crap. Thank you. Fixing that now.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:30 pm
DEFAULT. DEFAULT. She’s saying it shouldn’t be the *default*. She’s not saying don’t do it. She’s saying don’t assume that the way the character is if not otherwise required for the sake of the story is gender binary. So, it’s possible to have a gender-queer mechanic instead of a man who is a mechanic sometimes. Not DEFAULT binary=/= Not ever binary
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 3:31 pm
An assumption on your part. I’m not a professional writer. In the effort to type before losing my train of thought, I make misteaks in transposing from Brain to Page/screen.
Was it Mamet that did the play about the professor and the female college student with William H. Macy? That’s the impression I’m getting here.
Rick
January 29, 2014 @ 3:31 pm
I just call people “People”. But then, I don’t claim to be polite. I claim to be human.
Why I Selfishly Want Gender Diversity in my Reading | Bibliotropic
January 29, 2014 @ 3:32 pm
[…] commentary on someone else’s commentary of gender binary and diversity in SFF fiction. (Read Jim C Hines’s excellent takedown of all this, but I won’t be linking to Correia’s original post because I don’t […]
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:33 pm
Wait – you don’t use pronouns or proper names ever? You say “I saw People the other day. People was doing fine?” That’s um… non-standard.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:35 pm
If so — and I’m not granting that this is automatically the next step — so what? Does she not have the right to criticize works she doesn’t like?
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 3:36 pm
At no point do they suggest “hey, we will publish a crap story as long as it has a message we like”. I’m kind of thinking they still want GOOD STORIES (as they see them – that is after all a subjective call), and it kind of frustrates me that there are so many people who see calls for, say, more inclusive fiction as if that automatically trumps telling a good story – indeed, as if the two are in some way incompatible.
mikes75
January 29, 2014 @ 3:37 pm
This is actually not logic. This is the assumption (oddly similar to Larry’s) that people who want diversity only buy books that check off other specific political boxes. Some of those former readers probably didn’t notice or care about the diversity of his characters, while some of his current readers who support his politics are probably thrilled he’s written diversity into his books and would like him to do it more. The Venn diagram isn’t always a circle; people are a little more complex than that.
Stephen Dunscombe
January 29, 2014 @ 3:37 pm
Curse this blog’s lack of a “Like” button!
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 3:38 pm
“First, yes, there are people out there that list their “gender/sex” however the heck you want to say it as other than male/female. Whoopdeedoo. Basic biology is… for evolved life forms on planet earth, there is male and female … There are just two.”
That’s one hell of a typo, sir.
Muse
January 29, 2014 @ 3:39 pm
My example of damn fine storytelling with a gender-queer character – Lois McMaster Bujold (wait that’s *another* white dude protag) who has a gender queer character. Also a disabled protag which is awesome.
dave
January 29, 2014 @ 3:39 pm
sounds like my middle school librarian. I’ve always wanted to see Gay Nonviolent Vegan Vampires. although there is a u-tube video out there of a swedish guy making blood pancakes that is awesomly disgusting.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 3:50 pm
Hm, Jim can choose between silence or abuse … This line sounds familiar somehow.
But seriously, while Larry might be criticised for what he’s saying on his blog, nobody is invading it and spamming him with rainbows and unicornfarts (or should I say goblin boogers? spider phlegm? princess cooties?).
You and your ilk come here and behave like trolls, trying to intimitate and silence the discussion. That’s not okay. Not at all.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 3:53 pm
and I bet Jim is laughing all the way to the hit count
gwangung
January 29, 2014 @ 3:54 pm
“Ending the default” does not mean “the end of the default binary gender”
That’s very sloppy reasoning. It’s akin to saying “calling for the end of default white protagonist” means “no more white protagonists ever.” Being sick of an anthology of, say, just white protagonists is not particularly noteworthy, bigoted or demanding.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 3:54 pm
Can you prove any of your allegations, Nika or are we just rolling in angst?
gwangung
January 29, 2014 @ 3:55 pm
Let’s replace.
““I want to never again read entire anthologies of SF stories or large-cast novels where every character is white.”
Controversial? If so, why?
Last Scorpion
January 29, 2014 @ 3:56 pm
Are you sure he came up with that? I remember a poster of “You Might be a Redneck Elf if” in the local comic shop maybe 10-15 years ago. Was he doing trailer-park elves already then?
Stephen Dunscombe
January 29, 2014 @ 3:59 pm
“Language should be static and never evolve, which is why all future blog posts will be written in ancient Sumerian.”
I would read the Hell out of that.
(I may have just done a quick Google for a blog written in Sumerian. No joy.)
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 4:00 pm
Brian:
One of the problems there is literary fiction, I think. It’s mostly pretentious crap, where form and style trump substance. Here’s a good fisking of that:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/07/a-readers-manifesto/302270/
It’s not, in any case, that a good story and a good style are incompatable. It’s not that a good story with a message is impossible. It’s that the odds of either happening go down as the degree of requiring the non-good story part go up.
I’ve alluded to a few of the problems with what MacFarlane’s called for; namely, that we cannot use a non-binary gender character to be a villain, that we risk thought crime via use of the no longer accepted (as of 5:11 PM) pronoun, that we risk thought crime via making them mere tokens, and that we risk thought crime by dealing with actual problems and limitations that Macfarlane probably doesn’t want to admit are there.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:02 pm
Sounds free market to me. Just say no 😛
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 4:04 pm
Looks like the hit count is definitely up for this post, though it’s not yet the most-visited one for the month.
But getting X number of hits on a blog post isn’t a terribly useful goal. If those hits translated into book sales, that would be awesome. But they really don’t, especially in this kind of situation.
Mostly it just means a lot more time reading and wading through comments.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:09 pm
That would beg the question, why blog? Not snarky or anything, curious. I know of several bloggers who translate hit count to money, or claim to.
Michi Trota (@GeekMelange)
January 29, 2014 @ 4:09 pm
“You’re just doing this for the hit counts!” seems needlessly dismissive here, not to mention needlessly insulting toward Jim’s motives for writing on these sort of topics. It’s like implying that he’s just doing this for the page views and not because he actually *gaspshockhorror* finds them important and cares about them.
Turns out that a lot of people do care about inclusion and representation in SF/F and as a result, a lot of them end up coming to read entries like Jim’s, which in turn equals blog hits. Funny how that works.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 4:09 pm
First, do you actually think that hitcount matters more to Jim than the time wasted monitoring the comment section he could spend instead with his family, writing books, his day job or, I don’t know, cleaning the cat’s litter box?
Second, your words speak for themselves. You do the “prooving” all on your own.
Third, I’m mostly rolling my eyeballs.
Andrea Harris
January 29, 2014 @ 4:11 pm
Um, Jackie who? I haven’t heard that name since 1979.
Abe
January 29, 2014 @ 4:11 pm
Not sure why you say it won’t translate into book sales? All “true believers” will make sure to buy your books to support you against the rampaging hordes. And as someone who is a fan of Correia (and a member of that rampaging horde), your willingness to engage the masses is a positive note in my eyes, especially since you tend to do so with respect (unlike some of your true believers). As such, next time I am out looking for a new book, I will definitely keep your name on the list… Anything in particular you recommend for a new reader?
Thomas M. Wagner
January 29, 2014 @ 4:12 pm
Why both you and Correia have chosen to interpret that lead as a command, rather than simply an expression of MacFarlane’s wishes that SFF outgrows its reliance on hackneyed tropes, including those involving gender binarism, is something I’m waiting to have explained.
As for Correia, what persuades me that he’s not really about inclusiveness? Well, there are the adolescent outbursts about how “the literati won’t be happy until everything is boring ass message fic,” because of course that could only be what someone advocating for fresh ideas and new voices in the genre could possibly be asking for. There’s the insistence that only one kind of traditional story formula is “normal,” and that readers who like their Spaceman Spiff stuff just fine need to stand vigilant against the limp-wristed lefty academics who want to take their fun away. Larry’s whole piece is an epic overreaction, out of all proportion to what it attempts to rebut.
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:15 pm
Easy answer to that Nika but I don’t pretend to tell Jim what he should do with his time. When have I ever ” trying to intimitate and silence the discussion” ?
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:16 pm
“You’re just doing this for the hit counts!” , where does that come from and why would anyone who reads blogs be dismissive of hit count?
Heather
January 29, 2014 @ 4:17 pm
Elizabeth was define as more mulatto then white. Her mahogany tinge is really closer to that of a dark-skinned ‘Amerindian’—that was a term used for North American indigenes—than an African. – see crown of slaves where the escaped genetic slave is describing her. Of course her cousin Captain Henke has a more african look.
perlhaqr
January 29, 2014 @ 4:17 pm
I’m presuming it’s meta-snark about the SFWA. That is, it’s “I’m mocking the SFWA by parodying what I think their more strident and ideologically purifying members would say”.
I hope. 😉
perlhaqr
January 29, 2014 @ 4:18 pm
Yet another good reason for a gender neutral pronoun! 😀
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 4:18 pm
I know some bloggers who also have advertising, which is a nice way to bring in some additional income. But I hate ads, so I don’t do that.
Mostly I do it because either I enjoy the conversations, or I think they’re important. Sometimes both, but not always. When I was blogging about Avatar: The Last Airbender last year, I was doing it because the show is awesome, and it let me geek out about it with other fans.
Things like this blog post are more because I care about the genre and the SF/F community, and in my personal opinion, we have some problems. I see talking about those as a way to try to move forward and make that community a better place. (Obviously, others have very different ideas about what the community’s problems really are…)
In the long run, I do think the blog has gotten me a bit of name recognition and word-of-mouth, but it’s very much a long-term effect. Something like this post, where almost all of the new visitors are coming in with some level of, “Who is this Jim Hines idiot,” very few of them are likely to then turn around and buy my stuff, if that makes sense.
Rico
January 29, 2014 @ 4:19 pm
Brian, have you never had enough reasonable suspicion on something to state something without the opposing party directly saying it?
For example, in the news world, would you disagree that in the past poor news stories were published because they forwarded an approved agenda instead of being good stories?
Was Sean Hannitys short running comic book printed because it was good or forwarded an agenda?
It is ludicrous to assume there are not some people who would put an agenda over the quality of their work. Many people make an agenda a very big part of their life. Why then would they not sacrifice something less important to them?
The reason people get bent out of shape over these calls for inclusivity is due to some in that movement refusing to accept the work of straight white men, expressing severe vitrol. If you hate us, expect to be hated right back.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 4:20 pm
It would probably be more accurate to say they don’t track into very many book sales, especially in the short term. (It’s also impossible to measure, which means this is all guesswork and observation on my part, not hard data.)
And thanks — I’d probably recommend Goblin Quest as a good starting point. It’s my first novel, so it’s a little rough, but based on some of the things folks have said about Correia’s gnomes and elves, that one might work for you.
robin reid
January 29, 2014 @ 4:22 pm
I read “I Will Fear No Evil” multiple times in my youth (checking Wikipedia, I read all of Heinlein’s published work, I think), but it was “To Sail BEyond the Sunset” that did it, I think. “Friday” nearly did it, with its lovely rape propoaganda. But I keep thinking there was another one, where a father and daughter, and a man and woman they meet at a party (where the daughter and man propose after a tango?) and then they end up in a ship because, I don’t know, the world is ending, and spend the whole time squabbling and debating gender roles and power. I confess to still having the original beat up paperback of “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” from those days because I love Mike/Mychelle sooooo much.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 4:23 pm
Oh, crap. I forgot to clean the litter pans this morning. Thanks for the reminder!
robin reid
January 29, 2014 @ 4:23 pm
There’s much to love out there–but I tend to teach novels rather than short stories for a number of reasons. But I’ll certainly save the rec and take a look for it for my own reading! Thank you!
Andrea Harris
January 29, 2014 @ 4:24 pm
I can’t read all these comments, because I have to eat and sleep and go to work, so I don’t know if anyone has pointed out that so-called “non-message-bearing” stories are also, actually, sending a message? Like it or not, that “fun” series of genre novels about a manly man-with-a-penis hero that does manly-penis-man action things while the girl-female-women-baby-incubator characters are in the book only to worry about the hero/comfort the hero/fall in love with the hero/be rescued by the hero/die so the hero can cry, is saying something about what sort of heroes and heroic situations and male/female relations and roles we should aspire to. The only reason we don’t see that sort of message as being “shoved in our faces” is because it’s been dinned into us since we were in the cradle. One of the main reasons — I think *the* main reason, personally — that stories with any sort of difference from the so-called “norm” seem like preachy message-filled ones is due to the fact that people in our society have come to look to genre fiction as “comfort” reading, a place where we can read about so-called “normal” white characters “like us” (that is, like the people we see on tv all the time, most of whom happen to be white) that we can “identify with”, and when we see something we’re “not used to” (or someone we’ve been told is a non-entity, someone we’re not supposed to think about or care about), we get knocked off our comfort perch.
By the way, I’m sure lots of you are going to balk at the idea that Independent Thinker You has at all been co-opted by society and have your own free thoughts and don’t have any prejudices etc., but just skimming these comments proves that is wrong.
robin reid
January 29, 2014 @ 4:25 pm
58 FOR THE WIN!
Muccamukk
January 29, 2014 @ 4:26 pm
Anacdata:
I found your Princess series through some blog post you made about Elizabeth Moon and Wiscon. I tend to try writers whose blogs I like, which has about a 60% success rate on translating into finding books I like. Then again, I also follow blogs of people whose books I like, so I can get muddled one the order of things.
perlhaqr
January 29, 2014 @ 4:26 pm
Peavybob’s comment said the vast majority of what I intended to say in response to this article.
I adore Larry’s books, (because they’re fun!) and like about 75% of his blog posts. Sometimes he gets wound up in a vastly different direction than I do, though, and sometimes I don’t agree with his politics. (He’s just not libertarian enough for me.)
I was amused when I saw your name pop up in his FB feed, though, because I had only just heard about you via the Santa Claus story of late. If you’ve never read Larry, I recommend grabbing a copy of Hard Magic. It’s great stuff. 😀
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:26 pm
You’d probably be surprised. There is a lot of diversity in Larry’s readers.
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 4:27 pm
I was thinking of that line of stories, too: Ethan of Athos, Falling Free, and Miles’ hermaphroditic exec, Bel Thorne. But then Lois isn’t just any writer.
Abe
January 29, 2014 @ 4:28 pm
I am actually more interested in a good story than any particular “checklist” but thanks for the recommendation =)
Jason C
January 29, 2014 @ 4:28 pm
It’s built in if you’re using wordpress.com. .org is a little trickier, but it should have a default plugin option.
Jason C
January 29, 2014 @ 4:32 pm
I’ve read this thread three times now, and I think Larry and Jim are saying similar things, but arguing over context and the meaning of “is”. What works for one author wouldn’t work for another. In the end, it doesn’t matter what the character identifies as – as long as it’s entertaining and tells a good story.
Phoenix
January 29, 2014 @ 4:33 pm
Tangentially, reading this I was struck by Correia’s bewilderment over how “Romance languages” are supposed to deal with non-binary gender, because I actually speak Spanish and know something of the various ways one can deal with that:
In writing: use “@”, since it looks like an “a” within an “o”, to cover the unknown or non-binary gender case: “Latin@”. (The pronouns “él” and “ella” and the articles “el” and “la” I usually see combined with a /, though in the plural “ell@s” and “l@s” are used.) No standard pronunciation rule has yet been invented to deal with this in speech, though I personally like to pronounce the @ as “ao”.
In general: instead of using a gender-specific term like “un Latino/una Latina” attach a grammatically gendered but gender-neutral word such as “persona” (“person”, grammatically feminine but does not imply the subject is female) and use the grammatical gender appropriate to that word: “una persona Latina”.
I have no doubt that feminists and non-binary people who speak other Romance languages have such constructions as well, because, well, if you need to communicate about a concept on a regular basis, you jolly soon come up with a way, whatever the language.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 4:36 pm
It’s less that you, as an individual, are the problem. It’s the mass of Correia fans coming in eagerly for his defence and seizing the discussion. It feels overwhelming and aggressive. What is the reason for you being here if not to intimitate and stop the discussion?
Besides, may I assume that you are not normally a reader of this blog? And that you’re used to Larry’s more, let’s say “aggressive” tone on his? That might also explain why there are issues. Things that are no problem (in style and content) over there, might rub the readership on this blog the wrong way. I know that I didn’t appreciate it.
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 4:41 pm
Yes, I’m a servant of our dark overlords – inspecting litter boxes and tuna supplys everywhere! Muhaha!
Lisa K.
January 29, 2014 @ 4:43 pm
So, who the heck is Larry Correia? I seriously have never heard of him, and I thought I was fairly well read. Of course, after having read this, I don’t think he’s making it to my top author list. But then, according to this, he doesn’t want me as a reader either. I don’t like ham-fisted messages, but I like books that make me think. Isn’t that one of the lovely things about SF? You can be entertained and some new ideas sneak in?
Tomc
January 29, 2014 @ 4:45 pm
Nika, you specifically singled out me, as an individual. BTW, Larry gets “invading it and spamming him with rainbows and unicornfarts (or should I say goblin boogers? spider phlegm? princess cooties?).” all the time. “What is the reason for you being here if not to intimitate and stop the discussion?
” perhaps you should review the definition of the word discussion.
I’m not sure Jim’s intent is to maintain a blogspace in which you feel safe. As any good capitalist and libertarian, I would recommend not reading them.
robin reid
January 29, 2014 @ 4:45 pm
Anecdata only, but I know a number of women in the socially progressive spaces of fandom including myself who found your blog, read it, and went out and bought your books! (My favorite is the Libriomancer series, haven’t read the Goblin ones yet).
Jenny Thurman
January 29, 2014 @ 4:49 pm
As another data point, I know I flagged one that said “New to the internet, are you?” Which, while not nearly as awful as the one Alex mentions above, is also clearly not actually contributing to the discussion. Especially once the discussion had reached around 100 comments, which it had by then.
So yes, I agree, I suspect a certain number of the people claiming that Tor.com doesn’t want disagreement are confusing productive arguments with unimaginative insults.
Monster Hunter Nation
January 29, 2014 @ 4:52 pm
[…] Hines didn’t like my response to Tor.com’s blogger wanting to end the default to binary gender. http://www.jimchines.com/2014/01/fiskception/ Jim is one of those noble crusaders, best known for raising awareness and protecting authors from […]
Jenny Thurman
January 29, 2014 @ 4:54 pm
yes, indeed.
The status quo is not neutral.
Andrew Wade
January 29, 2014 @ 4:57 pm
Sounds a bit like “Farnham’s Freehold”. Made the mistake of buying it on the author’s name alone, along with “Podkayne of Mars”. The latter actually ended with a debate between Heinlein and the editor over the ending published in the book.
mgwa
January 29, 2014 @ 4:57 pm
Have you considered Ancillary Justice?
Jenny Thurman
January 29, 2014 @ 4:57 pm
I can’t speak for Jim, but as for myself: yes, actually, I really do think people can distinguish between the use of an organization’s resources to attack another member vs. people disagreeing with fellow members in public venues.
But then, to be fair, I’m continuing proven wrong by comments like yours, which demonstrate that there are some people who really don’t see the difference, so I guess I’m just an optimist.
Marrying one’s sofa | Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
January 29, 2014 @ 5:04 pm
[…] well, it seems that certain persons find this worth […]
Trisha Lynn
January 29, 2014 @ 5:06 pm
It is time for me now to say, “But what about Fiona Patton and her Branion series?” It’s alt-history/fantasy where gender is somewhat irrelevant and can someone please tell me where there are more books like that which are being written today?
Nika
January 29, 2014 @ 5:15 pm
Tomc, I singled you out because you commented on my comment and none of the others did.
Second, I’m sorry to hear that. Attacking someone in their own private space on the web is not okay.
Third, you’re right, this is not a discussion. That would require a willingness to actually listen to the other side and I don’t see that for the most part.
Fourth, Jim’s blog is generally a safe place for any of his readers.
Fifth, in your eyes I would probably be neither a capitalist nor a libertarian, but a dirty socialist (you go Austria with your free univerities and excellent health care system!). So, yeah your self-description doesn’t impress me much.
Sixth, there you go with the silencing again. Looking away and staying silent only helps defending the status quo and I’m not interested in that.
Daniela
January 29, 2014 @ 5:38 pm
Since when?
Authors in general always have an agenda and some kind of meassage they are trying to bring across, even if, in some instances, it happens subconsciously. Some writers are more obvious than others and some are more subtle, but the writing is always to some extend influenced by the author’s experiences and by their views of the world.
Every story contains some kind of message, but not every reader will receive the same message. Readers, like writers, bring their own experiences and views with them which influences how they read a text. Any one who’s every done literary analysis can tell you that two readers of the same text might end up with vastly different interpretations of said text, depending on how (and when) they are reading it.
Sean
January 29, 2014 @ 5:39 pm
Gaie? you mind if I make a personal observation I make to all my fave authors? I’m waiting for more Babylon Steel. I’m sitting here going through withdrawal waitin for the next one. see the shakes making my hands palsy as I type this and the cold sweat running down my brow? Get thee to thy wordprocessor dear lady and produce more works so that I might shove more money in your wallet to satisfy my insatiable need for enjoyable entertaining things to read.
Sistercoyote
January 29, 2014 @ 5:51 pm
Yes, but where are you and Robin located?
Sistercoyote
January 29, 2014 @ 5:52 pm
We have one. “Them” or “They.”
Damn language prescriptivists getting rid of a perfectly cromulent definition of a useful English word mutter mutter.
Daniela
January 29, 2014 @ 5:53 pm
This! Thank you.
Some publisher decide to focus on certain under-represented niches and put that down as part of their mission statement or submission guidelines.
Sean
January 29, 2014 @ 5:53 pm
Uhhh Tom? Dave kinda has you there.
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 5:56 pm
No idea about Robin. I am in a sunny corner of SW New Mexico, where it last snowed on December 21st, and the temps are supposed to hit mid-60s by the end of the week. The “yard”, though, is 1.5 acres of oak/juniper/piñon scrub, liberally dotted with spiky things. Your call.
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 5:57 pm
We clearly need to embiggen its usage.
Civility and Comments Sections | Alex Dally MacFarlane
January 29, 2014 @ 6:01 pm
[…] I’m wrong! damnit, so wrong! and only in my twenties! and stuff like that, which Jim C Hines took apart so you don’t have to, for which I am grateful. Jim’s post nicely shows how Larry circles around the same strawmen […]
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 6:07 pm
As a straight white man, I have never knowingly been or felt excluded, nor to my recollection have I suffered extreme vitriol because of my straight white man-ness. Suspect Jim would say the same.
Maybe, just maybe, the vitriol that you’ve seen is more specific than just “all straight white men are evil and must die”. I leave it as an exercise for the interested party to wonder why that might be, and what might incite such vitriol.
robin reid
January 29, 2014 @ 6:11 pm
Yes–I read it earlier this year and am IN LOVE with it, SO much (it may well be added, when I see how the books fit into the timeline of the course). I’m already at 7 — we have a 15 week long semester, so I may talk myself into eight. I did choose the pretty near future, on Earth, as a focus for the seven, which is why Leckie’s is on the well maybe dare I hmm could I list!
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 6:11 pm
I must not be a true believer. I like Jim (as far as I know him through blogging and twitter – we’ve never met). But I bought “The Stepsister Scheme” and… It didn’t work for me. Doesn’t stop me liking Jim and following his blog, though.
Sorry, Jim.
Lenora Rose
January 29, 2014 @ 6:13 pm
It’s usually spelled Shakespeare. (Sorry. Couldn’t resist.)
When it comes to populist vs. literary (Another artificial binary I could do without), before arguing that bestsellers necessarily mean staying power, find some best-seller lists for the 1920s and 1930s – or even the 1970s and see how many books on them you’ve even HEARD OF. There’s a whole lot of bestselling fiction that just goes “poof”.
Avilyn
January 29, 2014 @ 6:13 pm
Abe – as someone who has read all of Jim’s novels, my personal favorite is Libriomancer; it’s got a great magic system and likeable characters, and was my first foray into urban fantasy.
The Princess series is great, especially if you like turning fairy tales on their heads, with an overarching storyline in the first three books that comes together nicely in the fourth.
The Goblin series was also a good read, and particularly humorous, but relegated to my 3rd favorite of his series just because the other two series were especially awesome. All in my opinion of course. Each series has parts that made me laugh or snicker out loud, and in some cases cry, and I only do that when a book has pulled me in particularly deep.
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 6:13 pm
Yep, I already did the “all stories are message stories” thing way upthread… 🙂
John Q. Public
January 29, 2014 @ 6:19 pm
Now now now, Lisa, they have to be the ‘right’ ideas. properly vetted by Her Hines. We can’t have crazy Libertarian or anarchist ideas floating around. We must have rigid iron bound TOLERANCE for the ideas that are acceptable to the literati. All these poor benighted souls that wish for adventure, excitement and dare I say it entertainment??? They must be purged in the cleansing fire of the Revolution. DOWN WITH CISGENDERED GENDERMORMATIVE FASCISM!
Tom Kratman
January 29, 2014 @ 6:21 pm
I’ve seen – indeed, I’ve _had_ – polite comments deleted from Tor.com, at least where polite allows for disagreement.
Anyway, to cases: What color was Rod in Heinlein’s Tunnel in the Sky? What was Johnny Rico’s ethnicity in his Starship Troopers? What color was Jeff Thomas in Sixth Column? The answers are Black, Filipino, and probably black.
Now I ask that for a reason. When you demand either an end to binary gender in sci fi or more opening to non-binary gender in sci fi – and different people have interpreted your column both ways – does that rule out subtlety, such as Heinlein showed with those three mentioned? Must every non-cis-add-the-pronoun-of-the-hour character be expressly explored as whatever they are? Is it enough to mention that they’re some other gender? What if they or their gender or both matter not a bit to the plot? Must plots be changed to add more of them in? Are we required to write such characters even if our existing market would turn us off like a to-be-hanged criminal from a ladder? Must they never be villains? To give them prominence? To starve for a political point?
Now, frankly, I’ve done gay heroes in at least two series, lesbian heroines in at least two books, women in four books, and the disabled in two. And the left hates me for it, for the very un-PC ways in which I’ve done it. (No mind; I revel in their hate.) So must we not only include them, make them prominent beyond their numbers or importance in real life, never make them villians, etc., but do so only in ways that you, personally, would approve of? Will you write for us a little pink or rainbow book of guidance so we can avoid offending anyone, in these days when people hunt for reasons to take offense?
Inquiring minds want to know.
SorchaRei
January 29, 2014 @ 6:24 pm
Honor Harrington is not a white female. Her mother is of almost entirely Earth-Chinese ancestry, so she is mixed-race. David Weber has complained more than once about various covers which depict her as white, but the text is clear that she has East Asian features.
The fact that you have (presumably) read many books about her without picong up this fact does, I think, speak for itself.
Girls are expected to be able to read and enjoy endless stories about boys. Non-white people are expected to be able to read and enjoy endless stories about white folks. Boys are not expected to be able to read and enjoy stories about girls. White people are not expected to be able to read and enjoy stories about non-White protagonists without missing/ignoring the fact of the non-whiteness of the protagonist.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:27 pm
John,
Please come back when you’ve mastered some basic reading comprehension and are able to contribute to the conversation.
-J
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:28 pm
Thank you 🙂
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:28 pm
There’s no such thing as a book that works for everyone. Sorry it wasn’t to your liking.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:30 pm
“As a straight white man, I have never knowingly been or felt excluded, nor to my recollection have I suffered extreme vitriol because of my straight white man-ness. Suspect Jim would say the same.”
Nope. And what little vitriol I get tends to come from different quarters.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:32 pm
Thanks, Jason. I’ll do some playing around when I get a free moment.
Geeze, Larry Correia, leave some straw men for the rest of us. ← Rachael Acks: Sound and Nerdery
January 29, 2014 @ 6:32 pm
[…] […]
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:34 pm
Just wait. A hundred years from now, the one thing I’ll be remembered for is my Frosty the Snowman fanfic 😛
Brian
January 29, 2014 @ 6:36 pm
And at no point do Alex or Jim say that the message should overwhelm the story…
Demetrias
January 29, 2014 @ 6:36 pm
On what page isn’t Red Sonja Manly?
Marc Cabot
January 29, 2014 @ 6:38 pm
It sounds like you are talking about “The Number of the Beast,” which opens with a man meeting a woman at a dinner party held by another woman, proposing to the first woman, and leaving with her, her father, and the hostess of the dinner party (the latter two also decide to get married on the way to the Justice of the Peace.)
As Mr. Williamson has pointed out in other related threads, anyone who thinks “Friday” contains rape propaganda does not understand the fundamental point of the book. Namely, that Friday does not think she is human, therefore she doesn’t get upset about things which are done to her. The whole book is about her learning that that isn’t true.
Lenora Rose
January 29, 2014 @ 6:39 pm
“Oh, me, oh my, oh, nonononono, I can’t have the gender-reassigned person be the villain…” or “Oh, no; I’ve mentioned the transvestite awaiting gender reassignment surgery, but is he or she – Oh, no, I am so confused; what’s the latest code pronoun? – prominent enough. Never mind that – please, somebody, PLEASE supply me the latest code pronoun – isn’t very important to the plot; I must still make – I am still waiting for that pronoun, people! – central, key, to make up for the oppression of the ages….”
Two things:
1: The correct gender pronoun for a trans* person (And the term you’re looking for is not transvestite) is what that trans* person chooses for themselves. Often but not necessarily that of the gender they are transitioning to, but I have seen actual human beings who ask others to use “it” or the singular “they”. But the easy part is finding out; asking is considered less rude than assuming in many cases. And if you’re writing the character, you can choose, though ideally you choose by reading up on commentary by actual trans* people. But that’s just “do your research”.
2: You know, if throughout your whole writing oeuvre (Note, nobody ever expects full representation in a single story, that’s a straw man) – you depict a range of races, people expressing their gender several ways, people of varied sexualities, people of complex cultural backgrounds – then something magical happens. Suddenly, instead of this one character representing “All trans* people”, they become a complex character in and of themselves, and can be good or evil fairly easily.
It’s made even easier by the way humans form communities around common ground — so if you have one Filipino character in story A, logically you might have two or three, and if you have one trans* person in story B, they might well talk to other trans* and genderqueer people.
OTOH, if in every single book, you present three straight white (cisgendered) dudes and two straight white (cisgendered) women and one Token Minority, making the black/lesbian/Asian/trans* character the villain looks like you’re being prejudiced.
Marc Cabot
January 29, 2014 @ 6:40 pm
“I Will Fear No Evil” is about what Heinlein thought a straight man (of a particular age, raised in a particular culture) who was suddenly given the body of an attractive woman would do.
You can agree, or disagree, but until we essay the experiment, calling it “offensive” is pretty darn subjective.
Jim C. Hines
January 29, 2014 @ 6:42 pm
“What if they or their gender or both matter not a bit to the plot?”
So what if it doesn’t? That doesn’t stop authors from choosing to describe and refer to characters as male or female. Even when their being male or female has absolutely nothing to do with the plot…
“So must we not only include them, make them prominent beyond their numbers or importance in real life, never make them villians, etc., but do so only in ways that you, personally, would approve of? Will you write for us a little pink or rainbow book of guidance so we can avoid offending anyone, in these days when people hunt for reasons to take offense?”
After 300 comments, I’m out of patience with this kind of ridiculous misreading and straw-manning. Knock it off.