Why I Cancelled my Reddit Q&A
SERIOUS TRIGGER WARNING FOR RAPE
ETA: It’s almost midnight, and there are now close to 400 comments on this post. I’ve read them all, and I want to thank those of you who contributed to the conversation, on both sides. A decade ago, I would have been good for at least three more hours, but as one commenter pointed out, I’m old. I’m therefore going to declare this party over, thank you for coming, and kick you out of my house so I can go to bed. (I.e., I’m turning off the comments now.)
I know some people will take this as further proof that I’m a grandstanding, hypocritical, pro-censorship, freedom-hating, puppy-kicking, fascist poopyhead. That’s fine. But with this many comments, I think most of the arguments have been made, and most of the insults hurled.
Have a good night, all.
#
One of the events I had lined up for the launch of my new book was a Q&A with Reddit’s fantasy community. I did an “Ask Me Anything” session with them earlier this year and had a great time, so I was looking forward to another round. And then Twitter pointed me to an active Reddit discussion which starts with, “Reddit’s had a few threads about sexual assault victims, but are there any redditors from the other side of the story? What were your motivations? Do you regret it?”
Numerous rapists jumped in to tell their stories. I’m not going to link to them.
The comments and reactions were mixed. Some people were horrified. Others tried to reassure the rapists, to minimize what they had done, or to praise people’s courage in anonymously talking about how they committed rape. There’s plenty of victim blaming, and comments from the “Women lie about rape to attack men!!!” contingent.
Earlier today I emailed the person who was coordinating my Reddit event to tell him I will not be doing it unless that thread is removed. Given the nature of Reddit as an open, relatively unmoderated community, I don’t expect this to happen.
An announcement was already posted that I would be giving away a copy of Libriomancer on Reddit. I don’t think it’s fair to back out of that, so I’m planning to post an additional giveaway on my site and ask my contact to update that announcement with a link to the giveaway. (He has been incredibly cool and supportive of my decision, and agrees that the rape posts are offensive and should be dealt with by the moderators.)
There are aspects of this decision I need to talk about. A Jezebel post called Rapists Explain Themselves on Reddit and We Should Listen talks about the way this thread provides insight into the minds of rapists, and how it’s important to have this conversation in unprotected spaces like Reddit:
“Nothing will change if we discuss rape culture in a vacuum. Taking the discussion beyond that vacuum, however, means opening it up to a wider audience that isn’t necessarily sympathetic. Reddit may not be the best place for that, but it’s certainly a start — and that’s important. It’s in these less-protected, less-sacred spaces where the conversation is needed the most.”
Others have argued that it’s important to understand evil, to see where it comes from and recognize that these are seemingly-normal people who’ve committed horrible acts. One person said that reading the posts helped her to realize that there are men deliberately targeting women, and that her rape wasn’t an accident or a “misunderstanding,” but a deliberate choice by the rapist. In other words, it helped her see that it wasn’t her fault.
That really stuck with me. But for me personally, the harm far outweighs the good.
It is important that we understand why people rape. But there are other ways to find that insight. Books, essays, research, and more. I’ve spoken with rapists and batterers, and it did give me a better understanding as to how this crime happens. But the circumstances of those conversations were very different. They were controlled, with people who had been convicted and held accountable for their actions. People who, as far as I could tell, appeared to genuinely regret what they had done. In situations where excuses were not tolerated.
Some of my problems with the Reddit discussion are as follows.
-Who are these people? My guess is that most of these stories are true, but I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who is trolling for attention. In the overall scheme of things though, this is a minor complaint.
-No accountability or responsibility. In none of the stories I read were the rapists held accountable for their actions. Nor did they take responsibility. The pattern tended to be, “Here’s the story of how I raped this girl, and here are all of my excuses. I got away with it, but I feel really bad now of course, so give me cookies!”
-Some of the posts are essentially How-To guides for rapists. Rape is not an accident. It’s not a misunderstanding. Predators practice their technique. They learn how best to target and overpower their victims. And now we have a thread from experienced rapists sharing their successful techniques.
-Rape is a crime of sex and power. I read some of these stories, and I see rapists getting off on the chance to relive their crime. The sexual aspect comes from the graphic descriptions of what they did, and the power comes from the reactions of the commenters. The dynamic I’m seeing here is one that allows a number of rapists to recapture the rush of their crimes.
-The Hurt Outweighs the Good. I won’t deny that some people have taken positive things from all this, but I believe the harm far outweighs that good.
#
I know Reddit is not a single unified group, any more than Twitter or LiveJournal or Facebook. My guess is that very few members of the Reddit Fantasy group have any idea what’s happening in the rapist thread, and that many or most of them would be horrified. I feel like I’m punishing innocent people for actions they had nothing to do with, and I don’t like that.
I’m also a big believer in freedom of speech. These people have the right to tell their stories. But that right to speech doesn’t obligate one of the largest sites on the Internet to provide a platform for their speech. Reddit, as I understand it, prides itself on a relative lack of moderation and an “anything goes” approach. To quote one member, “It allows any voice to be heard no matter how uneducated, insensitive or outright wrong.”
I don’t think people should be silenced for lack of education, for tone, or for having a different opinion than me. And I’m not going to tell Reddit how to run their sites or communities. Nor am I going to try to say everyone who chooses to stay with Reddit is a bad person.
But I’ve made the choice to walk away, both for myself, and for the hope that it sends a message to those with the ability to make a change at Reddit.
shmaesh
July 28, 2012 @ 12:35 pm
Tomato, I want to kiss YOU on the mouth!
If you’d let me, of course.
This is exactly how I feel about reddit. And the feeling only becomes stronger the longer I use the site.
It’s a hole filled with hate.
Matt/wvlurker
July 28, 2012 @ 12:35 pm
To be pedantic, in the US, freedom of speech is enshrined in the first amendment to the constitution, and freedom of association is derived from freedom of speech. I fully agree with the rest of your post. In fact, here’s something I just said on Reddit:
Freedom of speech means that the government can’t control speech. People can still demand things, and you can choose to accept or reject those demands, but you should know that speech has consequences.
_____
That’s fine, we can talk about it in the context of reddit. Reddit admins guarantee freedom of legal speech. There will be no consequences from reddit admins for any legal speech.
But there are still consequences for speech from others. Among those consequences is the fact that some people won’t want to associate with you if you (using a generalized, plural “you”) post things that disgust and offend them. It’s John Doe’s right to spout obscenities all day long, just as much as it’s my right to not let him in the house.
Similarly, it’s Dan Cathy’s right to say that he abhors homosexuality just as much as it’s your right to avoid shopping at chick-fil-a and supporting his ideals.
Matt/wvlurker
July 28, 2012 @ 12:38 pm
I’ve found some really great communities in isolated subreddits, but I’ve also felt the same level of disgust at what goes on elsewhere on the site that you do. If there was another place that had such great aggregated information for all of my interests, I’d abandon reddit in a second. /r/fantasy, /r/printSF, /r/startrek, /r/writing, /r/literature and about a half-dozen other small subs are great, respectful, and friendly communities. It would be nice if they were transplanted elsewhere.
Cadmon
July 28, 2012 @ 12:40 pm
That’s a completely different kind of censorship. Posting child pornography is an illegal activity. Talking about how you were convicted for rape is not.
Mom of 3 girls
July 28, 2012 @ 12:56 pm
Thank you. I wish more men would take your stance as being part of the solution of rape rather than seeing it as a “woman’s issue.”
I am an avid fantasy reader but haven’t yet read your books. I will use your links to give your books a try.
Cadmon
July 28, 2012 @ 1:02 pm
11,000 comments does not equal 11,000 rapists and rape apologists.
MYMYMY
July 28, 2012 @ 1:07 pm
So if it wasn’t for the rape thread you would have done an AMA.
That means you like associating yourself with racists, because there was a bunch of racist threads in /r/videos just days before and you were willing to do an AMA then.
This means you don’t give a damn about minorities of racist piece of shit.
Mark
July 28, 2012 @ 1:16 pm
Excellent decision sir. The ‘net should be free of censorship, but that doesn’t mean we can’t choose with whom we will associate. I don’t want to be near them, and I’m glad you don’t as well.
MT
July 28, 2012 @ 1:22 pm
Thank you for doing this. I am a reddit user who has been appalled by many of the facets of the community that have been discussed here. I hope your stance will encourage others to follow suit. The site moderators and admins need this kind of pressure to do the right thing.
Joel
July 28, 2012 @ 1:22 pm
What a cherry-picked argument. Two subs, sparsely subscribed (remembe?, Redditors number in the millions) widely hated among Redditors, out of thousands? And as another pointed out, 11K comments is very different from 11K apologists. Seems an awfully thin premise for dragging a site through the mud.
Jillian
July 28, 2012 @ 1:23 pm
Good for you! That thread was disgusting and reddit is rife with misogyny.
Reddit Girl
July 28, 2012 @ 1:26 pm
Thank you so much for backing out of this. I haven’t checked out your writing before now, but you’ve earned yourself a fan. That thread was disgusting and I’m glad to see people are standing up against it.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 1:27 pm
That’s true enough. I still disagree with your characterization.
Laura Resnick
July 28, 2012 @ 1:28 pm
” A couple of years ago, another “friend” forced me down and got on top of me. And you know what? I was LOUD and VIOLENT in my response. I kicked, screamed, scratched and punched. He got off me in a hurry. ”
One of the most inaccurate, erroneous, and dangerous concepts taught to girls and women is that “if you fight back, you’ll just make your attacker made and he’ll hurt you more.” Thinking on this started to change only when police stats of attacks were studied, and it was discovered that about half of all attacks break off the INSTANT a woman resists. And as long as the woman KEEPS resisting from that point forward, odds are better that even a persistent attacker will break off.
The reason is amazingly simple. A man or a group of men attack a lone woman because THEY EXPECT IT TO BE EASY. They’re not looking for a challenge. They’re not committed to winning at all costs. They’re looking for an EASY felony. Make it hard for them–even just by shouting a lot (and, as you discovered, by kicking, scratching, and punching) and a substantial number of attackers give up–and studies suggest that this happens -immediately- in about half of attacks, bcause “no resistance at ALL” is how easy most people want it to be when they choose a lone woman as their victim (including a lone woman who is known to them and doesn’t expect to be attacked).
Laura Resnick
July 28, 2012 @ 1:38 pm
When declaring that Jim’s decision about how and where to promote his work, spend his time, or participate in online communities is a failure to respect freedom of speech, people would do well to remember that your (or anyone else’s) freedom to express yourself does not include the right to be taken seriously, to be respected, or to be humored by people who find your speech repellant.
Just A Bag of Parts | What I Write
July 28, 2012 @ 1:40 pm
[…] […]
Jordan Lumd
July 28, 2012 @ 1:50 pm
Hey Jim, first off, even though I don’t agree with your decision I want to thank you for opening an interesting discussion, which is somewhat ironic given the circumstances… but that’s not the point I want to make.
You’re making a living in the fantasy genre which, even in the hands of it’s most talented creators has turned out female characters in exploitative positions, I’m not saying that you, personally, have put female characters in rape-danger to heighten tension, etc. But I think it’s a common trope going back to the likes of masters like Robert E. Howard and current favorites like George R.R. Martin.
It wouldn’t be fair to judge your work by the atandards of others and, in this case, I don’t think it’s fair to judge all of reddit because of one thread you took issue with. Certainly not fair to judge /r/fantasy unless there’s something specific there that upset you.
Kai
July 28, 2012 @ 1:50 pm
I dont think he understands what reddit is. Also, as a victim of sexual assault by my own grandfather I loved that thread. I work in psychology so I am constantly examining the motivations for why people do things. Whenever I think back on what my grandfather had done to me (and other family members) the only question I have is “why?” We all know how victims are affected but not the actual perps, you know? Isn’t a step towards healing diagnosis? Cant we advance from these sort of atrocities by understanding the psychology of these men (and women)? If we tell everyone to stop telling us why we do fucked up things, society will not know how to fix these problems. His protest hopefully will fall on deaf ears because reddit to me is beautiful in that we have outlets to glimpse into each others minds and experience what they experience.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 1:57 pm
Thanks, Jordan. That’s an interesting analogy, and I certainly agree with you that SF/F has a rather problematic history in any number of respects.
Instead of comparing it to the genre as a whole, I’d probably liken it to a specific publisher. A publisher can produce a range of books, but if a publisher shows a tendency to publish things I find hurtful and offensive, I’m much less likely to support that publisher. Which sucks, because it might mean authors who have no control over who else is getting published there end up getting hurt by association.
I’ll definitely admit that it’s not a perfect solution. But it’s the choice that lets me live with myself, if that makes sense?
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 2:00 pm
There are many ways of listening to and trying to understand people who commit horrible and evil acts. While I don’t support this particular collection of rapist-stories in Reddit, I very much agree with you that it’s important to understand where these acts originate and how to better prevent them. I just think there are far better ways to get that information.
Kai
July 28, 2012 @ 2:05 pm
I am interested in what better ways there are (that includes public discourse on the subject).
Kel
July 28, 2012 @ 2:16 pm
Thank you.
I believe that there is a difference between freedom of speech, and freedom of action. By providing a place for the approbation of rape, Reddit is providing freedom of action, not just of speech.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 2:20 pm
What kind of public discourse? There are a ton of sites that talk about rape and rape culture and such, for example, but I get the sense that’s not necessarily what you mean.
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 2:23 pm
The posts in that thread that received the most attention were likely trolls. Remember the part about not feeding them.
Kai
July 28, 2012 @ 2:24 pm
Any kind, I suppose, you said there are tons of better ways so I was just actually wondering what those ways were. I meant public discourse as in people from all walks of life being able to see the thread and read it, be able to comment, etc. (I dont think many people would actively seek out a site dedicated to rape but that could just be my opinion.) I just really try to get both sides of a story before I start labeling things as “good or evil”. I have found that no human being is inherently evil, there are just really poor decisions being made or a combination of poor experiences to produce a poor individual.
Kai
July 28, 2012 @ 2:27 pm
I’m positive that the only people that were providing approbation for rape are trolls as the commenter below me has stated. You dont feed those. They make it pretty clear that it’s a bad thing but that doesn’t change what happend and the fact that people should talk about it instead of it being some boogieman hiding in the dark.
Luke Edwards
July 28, 2012 @ 2:27 pm
Jim,
No, of course I agree with the banning of child porn, but the argument your trying to make isn’t similar in the least. Being in possession of child porn is illegal and you get arrested because there is tangible evidence to the fact. If someone posted a video of them committing a sexual assault, I would be the 1st one to report to the site admins and I can guarantee the user will be banned and reported to the popper authorities. Sadly the few questionable posts were just anecdotes, they do not contain evidence, and they are free speech issues.
Look if you do not want to associate with Reddit that is your right. My issues is with you stepping away, making this post and attributing a highly controversial thread in the community itself with the rest of the monthly 12 million unique users. With a user base that large your going to find people you do not agree with or even absolutely abhor. However, You could have taken this opportunity to highlight the issue and your work with it. Instead you took he chance to take a shot at one of the largest site that does some good in the world. Look at /r/suicidewatch the largest and completely volunteer group committed to suicide prevention, the funds Reddit has raised for various charities count into the millions.
thank you
Luke
Uhtred
July 28, 2012 @ 2:28 pm
Well, the thread discussing this in r/fantasy now has more posts than your first AMA, so I guess the little controversy that your sanctimonious posturing has stirred up is officially the most interesting thing you have ever created.
Ashley
July 28, 2012 @ 2:33 pm
Hines, I respect you, but in what world is posting pornographic PICTURES of children the same as having a DISCUSSION about rape?? Removing illegal content is not censoring. Removing a TEXT post because SOME of the users find it offensive (even if they all should) is censoring… removing any post because it’s offensive and not illegal is censorship. I’m so disappointed you cannot see the difference.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 2:38 pm
Sigh. This would be an easier conversation if people weren’t using a half-dozen different definitions of censorship.
I have no problem with people hosting a discussion about rape, as evidenced in part by the number of such discussions I’ve initiated and hosted here.
My point about child pornography was in response to various, “Why do you hate FREEDOM OF SPEECH!” comments, to make the point that freedom of speech is not unlimited, nor should it be.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed, but I can’t take responsibility for the rest of what you’re reading into this.
Anne
July 28, 2012 @ 2:47 pm
Maybe in a setting where the clear objective was education that would have been helpful, but Reddit has a very clear bias on the opinion of rape. This was clearly showcased by the top voted comments and replies. Most of the comments were by men who went through with a sexual act they “thought” was mutual, only to find out later the girl felt victimized. Other men then flocked to these commenters to console them, saying things like “bro she gave you ‘the look’ it wasn’t your fault.”. Reddit as a whole is simply not mature enough to handle an intelligent, informantive discussion on rape.
Alex
July 28, 2012 @ 2:49 pm
Find better male friends if you actually think that. I don’t have that feeling with a single one of my male friends.
arcana
July 28, 2012 @ 2:52 pm
Jim, I have never read any of your books! Sorry about that, I’d like to, but I fully support your decision to not grace reddit with your presence. Free speech is fantastic until it empowers shitlords such as rapists. Argument to the contrary, on how rapists deserve to be empowered like anybody else, will be ignored. It’s disgusting.
Kris
July 28, 2012 @ 2:59 pm
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I recently responded to one of the more “popular” threads in the category and I am absolutely disgusted at the piece of shit who thought up the Rapist AMA in the first place. Should I start up a Child Molester AMA, then, if it’s okay to allow these scum creatures to “tell their side of the story” in order to boast about it or make people believe that THEY’RE the victim? Why not open such an AMA for those who claim to enjoy “learning what the attacker was thinking”? ‘Cause damn the actual victims – we want to give the attacker a voice, right?
Pathetic.
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 3:11 pm
I read that story, and if you read it, he specifically says that earlier in the night they were “play-wrestling” and wound up in a moment of eye contact. “the look” is something anyone who’s about to hook up with someone else has experienced, and if you read the REST of the story she did it again – He didn’t even get a chance to kiss the girl, let alone rape her. He thought she was coming on to him, and made a move – the moment he saw how horrified she was he stopped.
If you censure this kind of discussion, we would never get a glimpse that maybe that girl has experienced some kind of sexual trauma, and to me that seems like the real story there. What’s going on in her life? up to that moment, it seemed to the person telling the story that she was interested in him. Maybe she has a deeper issue than this man – maybe her father or uncle or brother (or mother or sister or girlfriend) abused her at some point.
What the author fails to understand is that where else do you have an anonymous forum to talk about this sort of subject? Only a repentant rapist, or a rapist full of braggodocio will go online with *intent* to talk about their story. Reddit gets over a BILLION pageviews a day and has MILLIONS of subscribers, all with different interests and from all walks of life – it’s not that the “male audience flocked to these commenters”… do you know *anything* about demographics? HUNDREDS of people replied to that guy, and I promise you will find several posts stating “as a woman, I feel etc…”
You don’t understand reddit at all. The whole point was that ANYONE can participate in that discussion and the COMMUNITY WILL DETERMINE THE MERIT TO THE CONVERSATION, not some specialist, not someone on their high horse. No matter what, EVERYONE will get a say.
Saying that you’re not going to the site because some of it’s members told their personal stories in an anonymous setting and that offends you is like saying that you’re not going visit to new york because there are people there who have committed crimes. Where are there *not* people who have committed crimes?
The purpose of that thread is not so that we can have a “collection of rape stories”. The purpose of Reddit, the true purpose, is to allow information to flow easily between all different kinds of people and provide prospective you are UNABLE to achieve on your own due to the limited ability humans have of only living one life. On reddit, one can take in the information and experiences of thousands if not millions of people at once.
tl;dr – reddit is no different than society. There are trolls, there are scholars, and everything in between – boycotting reddit is the same as refusing to participate in society.
Mosh
July 28, 2012 @ 3:12 pm
I wholeheartedly agree. While I do not agree with everything on reddit, in-fact, some of the things on the site completely outrage me- the website is broken down into different forums, or, ‘subreddits’. Each subreddit is moderated by their own set of moderators, there are no global moderators (aside from reddit administrators). If Jim preferred to stay away from the AMA board, he could always go to the Fantasy board and perform his AMA there.
The way I see it is like this: Reddit is a strip-mall. Sure, there’s a few shops here and there that sell pornography, some sell weapons, another shop there sells tobacco and alcohol. And if Jim prefers to stay away from those things, that’s fine. He can set up shop at the book store and sign autographs there.
But to stand and say, “I don’t want to go to this strip mall because of the over-looming porno, sale of firearms, tobacco and alcohol!” is in-fact what he admitted to earlier, he feels like he is punishing his fans.
However, Jim is his own person- and Jim can make these decisions on his own. If he feels that he doesn’t want to do the AMA, I support him- but to hope that reddit.com censors it’s community? I believe that’s where I draw the line.
Spencer
July 28, 2012 @ 3:15 pm
The Reddit thread in question helped me understand how women in my life have to act in our society. My SO calls me when she has to walk home in the dark at times because she is concerned. I’ve been at parties and tried to keep my friends safe, but more often then not my female friends don’t go or don’t drink at all. I’ve seen the impacts of our culture surrounding rape, but I didn’t understand why, or assumed it’s normalcy as acceptable. Because of that thread, the stories and responses to them, I now understand my own privilege as a male and what all the women in my life have to go through. Could this have happened in a different way? Maybe, probably so, but I will be honest, I don’t go searching for this information and wouldn’t have found it if it was not in a place I normally go. Many problems in the above sentence for me and my own life, I know.
Framer
July 28, 2012 @ 3:16 pm
It’s hilarious to see so many people so excited to be upset over something. I guess it gives your lives meaning.
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 3:19 pm
should that one person (or several hundred people) reflect the opinions of millions of people?
Ever read American Psycho? Have you considered that because of the anonymous nature of that site what you had been reading could have been written by a 19 year old woman taking creative writing?
I’m not defending anyone who ever did anything like the things in that thread, but isn’t it going overboard to condemn a forum with millions of entries for one thread?
Adrienne
July 28, 2012 @ 3:20 pm
Thank you. Reddit was the wrong place for a discussion like this.
Yawn
July 28, 2012 @ 3:30 pm
“I think people should have the right to free speech, I just don’t think anyone should support that right when I disagree with it.”
jEREMY
July 28, 2012 @ 3:30 pm
This is like not going on a radio show because you heard a radio show one time that you disagreed with.
ghanima
July 28, 2012 @ 3:33 pm
I’m a woman who has been raped and a two-year Redditor. My experience with Reddit is rarely a positive one when it comes to issues regarding my sex. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the internet is a hostile place for women and that rape is a topic that is still not taken seriously enough. Rather than turn a blind eye to the misogyny that exists in Western culture, I — like you — choose to speak out against it. I thank you, Mr. Hines, for adding your voice to the choir of people who are saying, “This is unacceptable and needs to change.”
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:35 pm
Old man doesn’t understand technology.
Sees the words of few on a site of millions.
Demands censorship.
Leaves internet.
LOL.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:36 pm
Next we should see if we can get him to stop writing books until rapists stop reading them.
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 3:37 pm
“Do (this) or I (do/don’t) do (this2)”
there’s your formula, fix it for grammatical correctness depending on your subjects etc.
“If you go drinking with your friends again tonight, I’m going to leave you.”
“Take that thread down or I’m not going to do the thing I committed to do.”
“I’m not going to play with you unless you stop playing with Sarah.”
and so on
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:38 pm
That thread gave hundreds of thousands of people insight into what rape is really like. I saw it and it disgusted and horrified me, but I would never advocate censoring it. It is a useful window into the ugly. It is reality.
I find your desire to censor what you disagree with disappointing.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:40 pm
+1.
Jim C. Hines
July 28, 2012 @ 3:40 pm
Chris – if you’ve got something useful to add, fine. But you’re coming close to getting booted for trolling.
BN
July 28, 2012 @ 3:41 pm
Redditor’s sense of entitlement?
How about Mr. Hines sense of entitlement?
“Remove this post or I’m not doing an AMA”
It’s one thing for him to decide not to the AMA, but another thing entirely asking that Reddit censor legitimate content.
Honestly, I think that Mr Hines only wrote this article to stir up controversy and get more free publicity from Reddit.
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 3:42 pm
What about all the people in that thread who said that raping someone had traumatized them? Should the fact that we can learn about the psychology of people like this be disregarded because if makes you uncomfortable?
and as a man, I almost never self identify as male and I post all the time, my comments are judged on their quality not my gender.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:42 pm
>While I claim to support free speech, I believe in censoring people I dislike.
FTFY
SirBruce
July 28, 2012 @ 3:43 pm
Mr. Hines,
I don’t know you or your books. I have never heard of you or of them before today. But as a writer myself, the idea that a fellow writer would openly call for censorship is disgusting. Can you imagine the next step? “I refuse to do an AMA if Jim C. Hines is allowed to do an AMA!” and so on. Where does this get us?
I myself have been a victim of a false rape accusation. While I did not participate in the thread in question, I did read it closely, and found a lot of solace and comfort in the fact that others had had similar experiences. It also helped crystalize in my thoughts what really was rape, as described by actual rapists, and how their acts were quite distinct from anything I had ever done.
Any speech is going to be viewed negatively by someone. But so long as one person finds something positive in it — even if it be only the speaker — I have a hard time condemning it. I will condemn the content, certainly, if I disagree with it. But I don’t condemn the act.
Paraphrasing Justice Brandeis, “The solution to bad speech is more speech.” You will find this sentiment echoed across the Internet.
If I were of a more cynical bent, I’d suggest you were publicly withdrawing from the AMA precisely to generate more media attention than you would have otherwise gotten had you gone ahead with it. But that would be unfair. As I said, I don’t know you, and I don’t know your books.
But given the attitude you’ve displayed, I have no interest in knowing them, either.
Bruce
BN
July 28, 2012 @ 3:43 pm
As long as it’s free speech that is legally protected in the USA, Reddit will continue to allow it.
Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:45 pm
I like that reddit is a space available for all opinions, even the horrible ones.
I’d rather live in a free but ugly community than a fascist censoring one.
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 3:47 pm
this guy gets it
Bob
July 28, 2012 @ 3:48 pm
You say that, but… you are asking a group of millions to censor a dozen people…
Comes across as more of an ego trip than activism.
guy
July 28, 2012 @ 3:50 pm
+1. Spot on.
Long time Fan
July 28, 2012 @ 3:51 pm
>Say what you mean. You’re not a big supporter of free speech. You’re a big supporter of carefully moderated speech.
I’m really disappointed by this post, Jim. You’ve lost a fan.
Me too
July 28, 2012 @ 3:51 pm
Me too
Another Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:53 pm
Wow! Are you just butthurt that he cancelled his AMA, or are you just really that big of a jerk? I hate that he cancelled it, but I understand and respect his decision (even if I don’t agree with it).
In short…grow up.
confused
July 28, 2012 @ 3:54 pm
exactly. The arguments in this post equally apply to Jim leaving the internet, or never reading a book again.
chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:55 pm
There ya go with your love of free speech 🙂
Another Chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:57 pm
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:57 pm
If he get praised for making pompous illogical ultimatums, why can’t I make pompous illogical comments?
srs
July 28, 2012 @ 3:58 pm
When will you be stopping use of Twitter? The tweets I’ve read on there are just as bad or worse than anything you have mentioned. Twitter has done nothing to censor them.
How about livejournal? Lots of rape fantasy and pictures of scantily clad girls that are under 18. Flickr has those pictures too.
What if I were to start a big commotion since the hosting you use also hosts degrading porn sites, bigotry, hate speech, pro anorexia sites, a site that encourages suicide, and etc?
Reddit is a host. Users can create their own community. Greyware and Verizon are hosts. This website is your community. Using your logic I should disassociate myself from you and your community since I find what goes on elsewhere at the host to be reprehensible.
chris
July 28, 2012 @ 3:58 pm
LOL?
pH
July 28, 2012 @ 3:59 pm
I think the point he’s making is… Why? There was one distasteful thread on reddit, therefore… Cancel allowing people to ask you questions? Why? What’s the point of doing that? What does it achieve? The rapists will still be unrepentant, but now your fans don’t get to talk to you. I don’t get it.
shmaesh
July 28, 2012 @ 3:59 pm
If they were traumatized, why didn’t any of them turn themselves in?
James
July 28, 2012 @ 3:59 pm
Totally overboard
Fred
July 28, 2012 @ 4:00 pm
He wasn’t getting paid to do an AMA, he was using reddit to promote himself.
BN
July 28, 2012 @ 4:01 pm
Your post doesn’t make much sense.
Freedom of Association is the right to choose who you are associated with, and freedom of speech is the right to not be censored.
So what does it mean when you say (translated):
“I don’t find it surprising that Redditors feel that their mythical right to not be censored trumps your right to choose who you are associated with.” <– See how freedom of speech and freedom of association aren’t really related to each other in this context, and the sentence doesn’t make any logical sense?
AR
July 28, 2012 @ 4:01 pm
Oh my God, give it a rest.
Alex
July 28, 2012 @ 4:02 pm
Come on Jim, you’re better than that.
splee
July 28, 2012 @ 4:02 pm
It’s his website, he can ban if he wants to.
splee
July 28, 2012 @ 4:03 pm
free speech != freedom from people getting mad at you.
Alex
July 28, 2012 @ 4:03 pm
In related news, Jim C. Hines stops driving on the highway because numerous rapists drive on the highway.
In related news, Jim C. Hines cancels his Costco subscription because numerous rapists shop there.
In related news, Jim C. Hines stops drinking water because numerous rapists drink water.
In related news, Jim C. Hines stops breathing air because numerous rapists breathe air.
In related news, fantasy author Jim C. Hines dies of being an idiot.
chris
July 28, 2012 @ 4:06 pm
You get me 😀
Brett
July 28, 2012 @ 4:06 pm
You mean someone posted something you don’t like on the internet, BIG DEAL. It happens everywhere so you can go crusade there too if you want to make such a big stink go do it everywhere, don’t just take pot shots at what you said yourself was a community that “prides itself on a relative lack of moderation” I mean what are you expecting really. You went next to the stove and said damn that’s hot, yeah we know it is please shut up. So basically it comes down to this looking like an advertising ploy to stir things up and get your name out there.
Brad B.
July 28, 2012 @ 4:07 pm
I believe in free speech when it’s something I agree with, like all good liberals> FTFY
/r/Fantasy
July 28, 2012 @ 4:08 pm
>If you really supported free speech you would use your AmA as a platform to not only promote your book but to give your views on this issue to more people than actually view this website.
+1
Duderin0
July 28, 2012 @ 4:08 pm
“I will not be doing it unless that thread is removed.”
Goodbye you fucking fascist!!!
Brad B.
July 28, 2012 @ 4:08 pm
74% of redditors are rapists. Don’t punish the other 26% because those doucheboxes can’t get laid the ol’ fashioned way.
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:12 pm
Female Redditor here–you do realize a lot of people on Reddit troll and make up stories for “points”, right? I know some of the threads on Reddit are creepy, but most of the people posting in them are liars. You have to learn to ignore them.
For me, Reddit is helpful because I can tune in to my particular city’s subforum, where people list events and fun things to attend, that I had no clue were happening otherwise. Same for a subforum dedicated to my university. It’s a great way to communicate with other people like me (young, otherwise stuck looking for announcements on unhelpful newspaper bulletins for events, or looking at Craigslist).
I do understand your shock, but people on the internet lie. A lot. Don’t let their antics get to you.
SadGastronomer
July 28, 2012 @ 4:12 pm
Wow. you’re just being petty now.
the_quietness
July 28, 2012 @ 4:13 pm
Apparently, they think they have the right to not be offended by us being offended.
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 4:13 pm
>Sorry, but the larger world is full of pigs.
Cake
July 28, 2012 @ 4:14 pm
I should probably add, since some commenters here are listing their association with rapes and whatnot–I was an assault victim once, but I stabbed the guy who attacked me. I had PTSD for the longest, but I’m well over it now. Conversations about rape don’t even phase me anymore.
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 4:14 pm
Yeah, Jim. Do you think Gmail should be required to read every email message and decide whether it is morally acceptable?
This is exactly how fascism begins.
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 4:16 pm
>I have no problem with people hosting a discussion about rape, as evidenced in part by the number of such discussions I’ve initiated and hosted here.
But you won’t do your AMA unless they take down something you have no problem with them keeping up…?
Youareanidiot
July 28, 2012 @ 4:18 pm
Waaah! I said something stupid and got slapped down for it! Oppression! Oppression!
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 4:19 pm
He doesn’t think we should ignore that they exist, he thinks we should ignore ALL INTERNET SERVICES that rapists use.
AR
July 28, 2012 @ 4:19 pm
Welp, it was only a matter of time until someone brought up politics for no apparent reason
James
July 28, 2012 @ 4:19 pm
Oh right, because men don’t actually rape women, they just lie about doing it on the internet for man points.
bob
July 28, 2012 @ 4:20 pm
I am taking a stand! Macaroni salad is the best tile grout you can buy! I don’t care what you say!
I have no idea whether what I just said is logical or not, but I’ll bet you admire me 😉
JB
July 28, 2012 @ 4:22 pm
maybe some of those who were, did, or sought psychiatric help. And many of them were unrepentant. I’m not qualifying anything, I’m taking about learning about it. Should we not learn about it because it is too disgusting? Too vile? Is that not the *purpose* about learning as much as we can about it so we can fight it at the root, not bitch about people telling stories on a website? Do we stop our kids from learning about the Holocaust? The Civil War?
Do we not want to know ourselves better so that we can truly understand and correct our inherent flaws?
troll
July 28, 2012 @ 4:24 pm
I don’t just have the right, I have the pleasure of seeing you be offended.
Just a Redditor
July 28, 2012 @ 4:25 pm
To be frank, that thread is not the most offensive thing on Reddit. There are whole subreddits dedicated to glorifying violence especially towards women. Ever heard of /r/beatingwomen? What about /r/rapingwomen? /r/rapingretards? There are more than that, but even going on one of those is enough to make me sick. I’m glad to see you are able to say that post is not okay, but getting that post removed wouldn’t mean anything when they allow communities of people like that.
Anyone who goes on that site does so at their own risk, it is most certainly not a safe space.
Lora
July 28, 2012 @ 4:26 pm
This is spam – look at the website link
Disgusted
July 28, 2012 @ 4:26 pm
Wow, spammers have reached new lows…