 Read Chapter One: pdf, epub |
Striking a Pose (Women and Fantasy Covers)A while back, we had a discussion on the blog about the cover art for my princess novels. For the most part, I really like these covers, but they’re not perfect. Now I could talk about the way women are posed in cover art … or I could show you. I opted for the latter, in part because it helped me to understand it better. I expected posing like Danielle to feel a little weird and unnatural. I did not expect immediate, physical pain from trying (rather unsuccessfully) to do the hip thing she’s got going on. I recruited my wife to take the pictures, which she kindly did with a minimum of laughter.
I’m tempted to use the Night Myst pic as my new author photo. In all seriousness, I spent the rest of last night with pain running through most of my back. Even the pose in The Shape of Desire, which first struck me as rather low-key, is difficult to imitate and feels really forced. Trying to launch my chest and buttocks in two different directions a la Vicious Grace? Just ow. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with being sexual. I can totally see Snow from the princess books flaunting her stuff, for example. But posing like these characters drives home exactly what’s being emphasized and what’s not. My sense is that most of these covers are supposed to convey strong, sexy heroines, but these are not poses that suggest strength. You can’t fight from these stances. I could barely even walk. Guys, you should try it sometime. Get someone who won’t laugh at you too much to try to help you match these poses. The physical challenge is far more enlightening than anything I could say. (Wardrobe changes are optional.) A few covers which I feel do a pretty good job of conveying strong, capable female characters: The Gaslight Dogs, An Artificial Night, The Darkest Edge of Dawn. Other suggestions and general discussion are welcome, as always. Related: A contortionist and martial artist tries to imitate a comic book “fighting pose” … and can’t do it. 314 comments to Striking a Pose (Women and Fantasy Covers) |
 Subscribe to RSS feed. |
|
Copyright © 2013 Jim C. Hines - All Rights Reserved |
||
Being me, I naturally couldn’t stop there. I headed over to Amazon and grabbed a sampling of book covers, primarily urban fantasy, and spent the evening doing a photoshoot. Click on if you want to see the results (or if you just really want to see a shot of topless Jim).
Here is another cover I just don’t quite get: Dead Reign by T.A. Pratt (http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Reign-T-Pratt/dp/0553591355/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1326382228&sr=8-8). So she apparently is landing after jumping down from something (that is what I’m assuming anyway) but ever since I first saw the cover there are just things that bug me. Like the position of her legs and her boobs are off somehow. What really gets me in most of the covers out there are when they make the character large chested and yet put them in clothing that definitely would not support such a large chest by itself, and in most cases there is no bra in sight.
I try not to focus too much on the covers nowadays (even with the series that I like).
I used to work as a figure model, in art classes. Students wanted us to take these poses, or other poses they’d seen in photographs, expecting us to hold, exactly and for hours, contortions that the human body wasn’t designed for. Thank you for noticing, and bringing attention to it.
I love you. Also, note the frequent importance of being able to see the breast and butt AT THE SAME TIME. Gotta get all the goods at once. *sigh*
Actually, they’re leaving out the foot fetishists. Not that you hear them complaining, but…..
First off, glad to have found out about you, your books look awesome and I’ll be getting some soon.
Second, I think the woman in Queen of Wands looks like she’s jumping and halfway through swinging the swords through someone’s skull. The pose can’t be held, because it’s actually moving.
And some of the poses become a lot easier to handle if we assume gymnast-level flexibility. Or even regular attendance at bellydance class.
You at least used cover art which is (almost) reasonable for your examples. There is an artist, who shall remain nameless for this piece, whose figures regularly defy gravity AND lose perspective (a giant sextopus not actually touching the babe-in-the-brass-bikini which it is holding over its head, for my example).
Insulin pumps are not sexy but you wear yours well.
I am now going to go read your books because you are clearly awesome. Thanks for making a great point in a hilarious way!
My favorite female writer of fantasy and sci-fi tends to have really good covers. I don’t know how much say she’s getting in it, but the women on her covers look truly bad ass, as well they should!
My favorite is The Deed of Paksenarrion…who wouldn’t want to be able to sword fight effectively from a horse?
Also, Rules of Engagement has a good cover…realistic space/battle armor, that isn’t all about showing off curves instead of protecting the owner of the curves!
Thanks for doing this, these are fantastic! Women certainly like looking attractive, most people do…but many covers are so obviously all about sucking men in to read the book, and not about showing the character’s strength.
(Another good one from Elizabeth Moon, the cover for The Serrano Succession.)
“Night Mist” is displaying an aerobics move, one that Jane Fonda used to do. Some hula dancers warm up to it still, and they keep their center of balance low and knees bent in order to bring the hip up like that.
“Vicious Grace” shows a somewhat tribal style maya – a bellydance move. The artist ripped off Shakira’s move from “Hips Don’t Lie,” and her costume from “Whenever Wherever” (the tour, not the video). That said, I’ve seen sixty year old women who weigh two hundred pounds stand that way. The trick to protecting your lower back while sliding your hips down and sideways like that is to tighten your core so as not to jerk the spine (and the model has done that). Yay bellydance!
And I guess that might bring me to my ultimate point. I agree that the purpose of these covers is to attract the viewer to the model’s physical attributes (the same way that half of paranormal romance covers feature shirtless dudes), but the poses are actually not beyond the capability of a real, live woman with only a moderate level of physical fitness. They’re not unnatural, as some people are asserting. You are looking at the covers as a trained fighter when the model may have been a trained dancer instead (and admittedly, only on one cover is the model actually in combat, and that’s a fantasy scene where she’s actually floating).
That said, hilarious job. Thankyou.
This is brought up in comics on a daily basis. There was a booth at one of the conventions asking men to pose like one image of Wonder Woman and how silly they came out. Then about a month ago, someone released an illustration of Marvel Avengers if all the male characters were posed the way the one female (Black Widow) was and if she was given their treatment. It was viral immediately.
You are my hero for this.
Your wife’s a lucky woman, Jim.
Thank you for doing this, Jim!
OMG!!! It’s official!! You have made my day…I’m still laughing. My favorite is the Yasmine Galenorn pic. Awesome stuff
I literally almost cried!
But where are your awesome tattoos? Your tramp stamp?
You really need to do one of those poses where the cover model is crouching down in a menacing fashion, often with one leg extended in a contorted fashion. When I look at those, every joint on the southern part of my body hurts in sympathy. I’d need a crane to get me back into upright position. And forget about effectively wielding my gigantic sword/gun/whatever.
D’oh! I actually have some temporary tattoos that I had made up for one of my goblin books. If I’d been thinking, I totally should have stuck one on!
Thank you. Thank you very much for this post!
You know why this post is so popular, Jim? Because this has been a common complaint. Something that no one in charge of covers (with exceptions, of course, because there are some really good, realistic ones out there) ever listens to. A lot of it may be ennui: this is the way it’s always been done, so this is the way it’s done. Luckily, styles do change, occasionally, and you may have just helped evolution along. ;3 Other than that, it is a fun post, which also explains why it’s so popular. Also thought-provoking, for those that may never have thought, really thought, about it.
A friend of mine is a photographer and he did a series of “Men Ups” which feature men in traditional pin up poses. They’re quite interesting and in a similar vein to what you’ve done here
Actually, I just realized that someone else did link to him, but this is the complete set
http://www.flickr.com/photos/clickandclash/sets/72157626584908000/
Thanks! I’ll be including that link in my follow-up post
Men-ups! Ohmigosh I thought I’d die! MEN! THIS IS WHY WE OBJECT TO BEING SO PORTRAYED! DO YOU GET IT NOW?
Yeah, some of the poses that get used for cover art are pretty silly. On the other hand, I’ve noticed, sadly, that at 54 I’m more flexible than a number of my young students of either gender (I’m a fencing coach).
<3 <3 <3
This sums up every issue I’ve ever had with girls on fantasy/sci-fi covers. Keep it coming!
Funny:) and not a bad physique either!
“I’m tempted to use the Night Myst pic as my new author photo.” DOO EEET. Seriously, though, I came here through BadRepUK’s Friday link post and have got to say that it’s wonderful to see more people bring up the issue of ridiculous female poses. I also love that you did one of your own book covers! Kudos for that. (If you ask me, you couldn’t get right the spinal curve in Vicious Grace because you have an ordinary human body, not one that’s made of jell-O. ;>)
I love you and want to bear your children.
But for now, I will have to zip over to Amazon and get some of your books, because I don’t see how they could fail to be my next favorite thing.
At one point in my life, I had friends who gave themselves tattoos, using needles and ball point pens. Ouch! Different friends pierced their own ears. As I am not a big fan of pain (much less, needles), well….. I have used temporary tattoos, though! Those would make good promotional items. Forget the tattooey covers!
I had a friend who did some modeling, she used to say if the pose wasn’t painful and unnatural it wouldn’t look good in the shot. And she was usually right.
Although I’ll be honest, if I saw you posing on the covers of those books like that… I’d buy it. If only for down days when I need a bit of hysterical laughter
LOL, great pictures and congrats to your wife for the minimum of laughter.
And covers that in my opinion show kick ass women are:
Spell Bound by Kelley Armstrong
Friday Night Bites by Chloe Neill
Thanks to chum ClaireK for pointing me this way – deep joy abounds and am now off to Amazon to order up one of your books – I like your style sir!
I adore these photos! Whenever you recover, I hope you do more!
ahaha couldn’t help laughing! other fantasy writers should give it a try.
cheers from France!
I get back onto my computer after 24 hours away (lasik surgery) and THIS is the first post I see. Oh my freaking God, I haven’t laughed this hard in a while. Are all your blogs this damn funny? If so, I’ve got to become a regular.
They’re not all this funny, but I try to keep things entertaining when I can.
Hope the surgery went well!
here via cathshaffer’s livejournal.
I am totally intimidated by 200+ posts, but wanted to interject that James Patterson’s Maximum Ride books (http://www.amazon.com/Angel-Experiment-Maximum-Ride-Book/dp/0316067954/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326516087&sr=1-1), including the manga versions (http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Ride-Manga-Vol-1/dp/0759529515/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326515926&sr=8-1) are examples of well-done capable female illustration. It may be because they skew slightly younger — my 11-yo daughter is a HUGE Maximum Ride fan — but as the mom of a daughter who loves fantasy novels and superheroes, I like to encourage the good stuff wherever I find it.
I would love to see some actual data about the way in which replacing some of that cover art with your version would affect sales. I think I would actually be MORE likely to at least pick up the book and see what it’s about. There probably won’t be any trouble finding a publisher willing to undertake that experiment…
This was very funny to see. Nicely done I`d say.
A corollary issue is the cover with the woman cut off at the chin/neck. Every time I see a headless woman on the cover of a book, I get all excited that it might be a dullahan book. And then it never is. Damn that false advertising.
These are great! John mentioned that a lot of the ridiculous poses in comics are supposedly from dance moves, which reminded me of this.
LMAO!!! Can’t…stop…laughing! Definate “A” for effort! You inspire us all! ^.^
Thank you! I really enjoyed getting a glimpse of your photo shoot ;-D
Sacre bleu, I cannot remember the last time I laughed so hard. Must go make friends with you at FB.
Oh this is just brilliant, and on so many levels! I knew there was a reason why I liked you, Jim. Sure, it’s mostly because of your Princess seies, but it’s even better now that I know you have a great sense of humor!
Ha! It’s about time everybody else figured out that you have a sense of humor, Jim! ;3
You have a fabulous wife for helping you get these shots. You’re so right about how silly some of these poses are. Clothing and armor can get pretty silly sometimes too as seen in this College Humor video: Female Armor Sucks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8
Idunno, you look good! I’d husband you if I believed in marriage, but seriously..
I myself, as a woman, have often wondered about those poses and how the models do it. If you want to try something else that’s just as painful (If you are a true masochist) try do the runway walk- repeatedly- in uber high heels from hell. I’ve read that models end up with knee and ankle problems from walking that way! check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogubu0ueGXs&feature=related
This is awesome! And as someone working toward improving the media representation of girls and women, it is a great educational piece too. Sometimes men and women need to walk a mile in each others’ shoes. No seriously, now try all those poses in high heels. Thanks for the smile.
The last one is not a static pose. She’s in the midst of performing a double saber strike that’s classic kung-fu (though the angle of the wrist on the upper arm is either bad anatomy or bad perspective) I should try to convince someone to film me doing the full sequence from one strike to the next. But it is rather a deceptive illustration, like illustrating someone in ‘Empty Stance’ (also called Cat Stance) because that also is a stance that you shift through momentarily and don’t hold.
Ooh! Update: The movement the girl appears to be trying to do is depicted in Avatar the Last Airbender, in the episode that has lots of flashbacks to the reports of the death of his cousin and uncle Iroh’s return from Ba Sing Sae in defeat.
The rest are rather silly though. I’ve tried holding hip-hiked poses before (interest in sketching led me to try postures frequently used by others to test their validity too) and they do definitely hurt the back!
What you’ve given me with your last paragraph is a list of fantasy books that I might actually enjoy. When I was little and I read a comic book or fantasy, I would relate to the hero (usually male), because you’re supposed to relate to the hero and because I want to have adventures and slay dragons, too. It wasn’t until I got older that I realized that because I’m a woman, society sees me differently, and now I’m supposed to relate to some useless, derivative character because we share the trait of having vaginas. It makes it really hard to read fantasy without getting upset, but this post shows me that fantasy isn’t all some bro-tastic sausage fest.
Also nice abs.
You know, Jim, I have been wanting to read your princess books, but when I went to my local BN, they were out of the first installment of the series. Now after reading your blog, I am convinced I need to read your books. Thanks for this illuminating post. As a photographer, illustrator and die-hard fantasy reader, I know exactly what you are saying!
The ‘Queen of Wands’ is slicing a fillet off her thigh. Ouch!
And yet another reason to be glad that I bought you entire backlist over the Christmas holiday. Thanks for being you!
This is hilarious! I found you through Piper Bayard’s mash-up. Should we expect to see you in next month’s Vogue? Hahaha!
You are a man of true courage, sir.
But I must point out one defect in your procedure. WRT the first image (Sharon Shinn, The Shape of Desire), the woman is portrayed sitting on a log — a much firmer surface than your sofa, and rounded rather than flat. Therefore she could be resting on her thighs instead of her hips. Also she could be using her left arm to support her back. That would be difficult for you, with the cushion.
Other than that, your poses make the point pretty well.
So, would it be very wrong of me to say that I can do all of those poses with ease?
Your point is well taken. However, being able to get into the positions shown yourself, does not make the female heroines depicted any less heroic… in some ways it will serve to be the opposite, in that they will appear more tough and heroic for those stances… just MHO 
Sally – please see my follow-up post.
It’s a shame that you can’t use these photos on dust jackets. They evoke a rare mix of mirth and irritation.
Honestly, I don’t often turn to the fantasy genre, but know that you earned an admirer today, Mr. Hines. I’m off to purchase one of your books.
I loved this! I’ve always thought the poses were silly and overdone. It is further vindication that the positions are as painful as they look! That said, I agree with the others, I think we need more of these pics.
This is awesome. Can I also recommend the great covers of Jes Battis’s OSI books? It’s a kickass heroine with breasts that are realistic for her body fat percentage in natural poses.
LOL I think the first one is easier that you think. The girl has what over here we call a “banana leg” – when it’s stretched it bends backwards a bit (or a lot), and it can look like bent outwards if both your feet point forwards.
(My legs do that, that’s how I know XD)
I don’t know who you are but I’m adding your books to my Amazon wishlist as I type this. You made my day.
Hehe. So I got curious, because I love figure drawing and I’ll model for my friends on the occasion. I can actually do all of those poses and hold for about 10-15 minutes before needing a break. I think you may have to lay at least some of the blame with the models used by the artists.
Models can do some inhuman poses sometimes. Sometimes the human body (especially a flexible female model) can do some unnatural looking stuff. (Although the artist should spot those and correct the model.)
You are awesome, Jim Hines. You have found a new fan.
My appreciation, let me show you it! This is awesome stuff. I’m just sorry to be late to the party (got here from a link on Jezebel) but I’ll be sure to bookmark and pick up some of your books as well!
Thank you for this!
Jim,
Congratulations! I’ve linked to this post on both Art LinksAPlenty and on regular LinksAPlenty now. ;3 I can’t recall a livelier post from anyone, as of late. I think you’ve won the Internet.
Yes, I’m sort of giggling madly while writing this; but it’s a subject that’s been consistently talked about, but never really blogged about, like you’ve done here, complete with examples!
Thanks. It’s certainly been an interesting two weeks!
Yes, it has! I haven’t seen a livelier discussion since that one page on the web comic, Looking for Group, a few months ago.
In the defense of illustrators, remember that art is done to spec for and eventual approval of art directors. This is what they have asked for. And paid for. (Sigh…)
I ran across a lead for this posted over at Jezebel. I’ve never been to your blog before, Jim, but I’m now tempted to buy each and every one of your books in order to encourage this sort of behavior. Yay stereotype debunking!
Speaking for myself, I can do a pretty decent with those poses without injury. Despite my hobbitlike stature – and habit for second breakfast – I am freakishly flexible and strong. I in no way expect that this is normal, and furthermore I sincerely doubt that anybody would ask me to be on one of those covers…
EPIC!! That is all!
Jim, I can’t stop laughing! And now I will never look the same at this kind of a cover art
An insightful and refreshing take on covers, and from a man’s perspective to boot! Though, I swear, most poses must be yoga inspired. I concur with Anita K’s remarks above (Jan 11). Those poses are quite impractical.
*Raises hand* I’m a former martial artist(and a guy). I’m years out of practice, unfortunately, but I can do and hold all the poses pictured easily as well. I do think body type makes a difference, but it’s IMO more stocky vs long than male vs female. The female hip to waist ratio exaggerates thing visually, but it doesn’t effect the mechanics of it.
Mocking these for being contortionist poses, at the risk of being controversial, really says more about how the the author perceives his own level of physical fitness than the poses themselves. These poses are actually pretty tame compared to the ones in Justsayins’ blogpost. Those ones are rightly contortionist poses.
The thing that bugs me isn’t doabilty, but mechanics. Specifically the center character in the first image, which succumbs to a weird tendency that comic book artists often seem to have of giving female characters awkward, mechanically unsound stances which imply weak muscle development in precisely the areas where you’d expect high muscle development and discipline in a fighter. Check out a lot of head-on shots in superhero comics and anime, and you’ll see “strong” female characters with knock-kneed pidgin-toed stances indicative of weak medial hamstrings and chronic poor posture (American artists favor foot pronation, Japanese favor supination). It’s like they think strong women are unattractive, and thus feel the need to compensate somewhere for the fact that they have to draw her with muscles, or in a situation where she’d be demonstrating strength. Or maybe they’re trying to use physical vulnerability to sub for emotional vulnerability, and the process both borking the appearance of physical strength… and exposing their own issues about psychologically strong women.
Thyank you for demonstrating why it’s called FANTASY. Good Luck with the leg cramps.
Thanks for this.
While the hip-tilt thing is easier if you have a cis-female body, it still gives you joint pain after a 30-60 seconds of holding still.
Modeling’s hard work, and modeling for action shots (like the one for Queen of Wands) is much harder – we don’t typically hang around, mid weight-transfer, for a reason.
It’s nice when someone *not* in the business is able to point this out.
Cheers,
Amazon.
Thank you! I love seeing poses like this done by men.
Hah! I’ve never read your books before but you’ve definitely gone onto my ‘to read’ list for this.
I thought of this post, here, when I got something on my Boondocks feed today on LJ.
http://boondocks–feed.livejournal.com/583426.html
It seemed to be close to th theme, though it’s a low-impact pose. And I’ve seen more women in it then men. Not that it’s really a difficult one, I think. I’d have trouble maintaining it, but that’s just me, I think
Well, as much as I enjoyed seeing pix of a guy striking fantasy girl cover poses, I DO have to point out that us girlz are built just a wee bit differently … Ya know, the hips thing….
I myself has unconsciously done some of those … You know, the hip thrust out, hand placed squarely upon it… usually when I’m ticked off. 
And you know you’re in trouble when I do the hip thrust with a hand placed on each hip! 